On Sunday, 11 March 2018 at 01:06:08 UTC, R wrote:
> On Sunday, 11 March 2018 at 00:36:19 UTC, Dylan Graham wrote:
>> Well, no. I'm more concerned with the fact that the D Language Foundation is focused on BetterC, yet does not mention DLLs at all.
>>
>> For God's sake, if D is the future, why does it continue to leech off C/C++? Other languages like Rust and C# only have basic function calling C (FFI/PInvoke) yet are way more popular. I get the feeling that most of the C++ programmers who would come to D have already done so.
>>
>> The most I'll ever need of interfacing with C and C++ is to be able to call their functions from D. I've no reason for BetterC.
>>
>> And what's with the language design, anyway? D has been designed with features that C++ programmers don't want, then now the D Language Foundation is wasting effort to change the language to rope those programmers in? If D was meant to be C++ 2.0, shouldn't it have been designed that way from the start?
>>
>> I came to D from a C# background. I was looking a language that had a GC, was awesome to program in and was very fast. Why can't D own up to these facts, rather than becoming a leech of C++?
>>
>> Every day D becomes more like C++ 2.0, why can't it just be D?
>
> Point to the wall on the left side. That is what your talking to. D its focus on C++ as a bad plan has been made pushed by many people ( lots who left ). Its like asking Go for Generics.

Yeah. It quite seems like that. Maybe after BetterC will the foundation get its priorities right.

> And its very nice to see the "71% in the poll do not want BetterC", well, screw them comment. So what is the point again by asking people opinions? And sure, BetterC can be reused to improve the D core but that is not what people want NOW. And yet, its a priority when 71% say its not!

Didn't BetterC start before the poll was issued? I hope that more polls like this are created in the future so that the leadership knows where it's priorities are based upon community demands.

> D simply is not equipped for dealing with people who come from languages like C#, Ruby, PHP, Python, ... because too many people here are C++ old timers ( yes, there are exceptions ) and they only think in that direction.
>
> Kind of ironic when D keeps pushing for more features hoping that it will attract C++ developers and the young kid on the block Rust is already eating up that market. And "scripting" language like PHP, that everybody criticizes just keeps growing and gained 11% market share in the last 7 years ( at now 83% ). Where as D its gain has been minimalist thanks to people leaving almost as fast as it gain.
>
> There is a lesson the be learned in this somewhere...

I wholeheartedly agree, but I believe this direction is because that the "C++ old timers" are in the leadership. I don't think there are "too many" in the community.

I also wish to point out that I'm not attacking Walter or Alex; I love the language they've created, but I'm fairly annoyed with their allocation of resources. They need to stick by the language they've created.

On Sunday, 11 March 2018 at 01:06:08 UTC, R wrote:
>
> Point to the wall on the left side. That is what your talking to. D its focus on C++ as a bad plan has been made pushed by many people ( lots who left ). Its like asking Go for Generics.
>
> And its very nice to see the "71% in the poll do not want BetterC", well, screw them comment. So what is the point again by asking people opinions? And sure, BetterC can be reused to improve the D core but that is not what people want NOW. And yet, its a priority when 71% say its not!
>
> D simply is not equipped for dealing with people who come from languages like C#, Ruby, PHP, Python, ... because too many people here are C++ old timers ( yes, there are exceptions ) and they only think in that direction.
> There is a lesson the be learned in this somewhere...
> ....

Again, D is not run by some corporation.

Nor is it a democracy - where majority rule. (read this sentence over and over till you get it)

It's a language that develops because people are sufficiently motivated to put in the time to develop what interests them.

Have your say and leave it at that. Stop attacking the work others are doing.

And stop your discriminatory use of the phrase 'old timers'.

On Sunday, 11 March 2018 at 01:10:28 UTC, psychoticRabbit wrote:
> On Sunday, 11 March 2018 at 00:36:19 UTC, Dylan Graham wrote:
>>
>> Every day D becomes more like C++ 2.0, why can't it just be D?
>
> Oddly enough, I think this is D's strength.

I really don't.

> Golang tried to draw the line, and look where that got it. Now it's a limited language for a specific domain  (at least until Go 3.0).
>
> Rust decided (and Go to some extent), to introduce foreign syntax that was vastly different to what the majority of programmers are familiar with, and, it makes it difficult to transistion to because its syntax is so unlike the syntax most people will continue to have to work with.
>
> D's strength, is that most C/C++/Java/C# programmers can just jump right in and use it. And, they can continue to go back and forth without syntax related psychosis developing.
>
> betterc is just another way of supporting that crowd..and it's a very big crowd.

Yeah, 29% of the crowd.

> Your problem is not betterc, but something else. So focus on that instead.

You're right, my problem isn't BetterC, it's the fact that Foundation can't get its priorities right. BetterC is a symptom.

> And personally, depending on the problem, C# is better to program in than D. I still don't know why C# programmers are willing to give up C# and prefer to use D.
> C# is vastly surperior for what it does.

I'm my current use-case, D is 'vastly superior'. I wouldn't have switched to D if there was no reason to.

> D is also particulary useful for some problems.
>
> Better to use both, not one or the other.
>
> Thanks to not being Go or Rust, you can do that - cause concepts, syntax  etc, are really compatible with both.

I'm not sure what you mean at that last sentence.

On Sunday, 11 March 2018 at 01:06:08 UTC, R wrote:
> .... And "scripting" language like PHP, that everybody criticizes just keeps growing and gained 11% market share in the last 7 years ( at now 83% ). Where as D its gain has been minimalist thanks to people leaving almost as fast as it gain.
>

Well, according to the TIOBE Index, C was the language of 2017.

Java is almost always on top, followed by C, followed closely by C++.

And it's not just 'old timers' using those languages... surely.

And scripting language can pretty much replace any other scripting language.

It's the 'real' programming languages that matter ;-)

And D's not doing to badly at all...despite betterc

https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/d/

(although I wonder what happended back in 2009 ??)

On Sunday, 11 March 2018 at 01:21:27 UTC, psychoticRabbit wrote:
> On Sunday, 11 March 2018 at 01:06:08 UTC, R wrote:
>>
>> Point to the wall on the left side. That is what your talking to. D its focus on C++ as a bad plan has been made pushed by many people ( lots who left ). Its like asking Go for Generics.
>>
>> And its very nice to see the "71% in the poll do not want BetterC", well, screw them comment. So what is the point again by asking people opinions? And sure, BetterC can be reused to improve the D core but that is not what people want NOW. And yet, its a priority when 71% say its not!
>>
>> D simply is not equipped for dealing with people who come from languages like C#, Ruby, PHP, Python, ... because too many people here are C++ old timers ( yes, there are exceptions ) and they only think in that direction.
>> There is a lesson the be learned in this somewhere...
>> ....
>
> Again, D is not run by some corporation.
>
> Nor is it a democracy - where majority rule. (read this sentence over and over till you get it)

The D Language Foundation, being the leading body of D, should hold some responsibility to the interests of the majority.

It is not a dictatorship (read this sentence over and over till you get it).

On Sunday, 11 March 2018 at 01:25:07 UTC, Dylan Graham wrote:
>
> I'm not sure what you mean at that last sentence.

I mean, cause D is so compatible with C/C++/Java/C# - that you can easily switch between them.

Whereas as Go and Rust have their own thing going, making those languages really difficult in terms of "programmer" portability.

C++ became popular cause C programmers could easily use it.
Java became popular cause C/C++ programmers could easily use it.
C# became popular cause C/C++/Java programmers could easily use it.

D is gradually becoming popular cause C/C++/Java/C# programmers can easily use it.

On Sunday, 11 March 2018 at 01:36:51 UTC, Dylan Graham wrote:
>
> The D Language Foundation, being the leading body of D, should hold some responsibility to the interests of the majority.


And also the minority. A lesson that humanity has to learn over and over again.

On Sunday, 11 March 2018 at 01:41:33 UTC, psychoticRabbit wrote:
> On Sunday, 11 March 2018 at 01:25:07 UTC, Dylan Graham wrote:
>>
>> I'm not sure what you mean at that last sentence.
>
> I mean, cause D is so compatible with C/C++/Java/C# - that you can easily switch between them.
>
> Whereas as Go and Rust have their own thing going, making those languages really difficult in terms of "programmer" portability.
>
> C++ became popular cause C programmers could easily use it.
> Java became popular cause C/C++ programmers could easily use it.
> C# became popular cause C/C++/Java programmers could easily use it.
>
> D is gradually becoming popular cause C/C++/Java/C# programmers can easily use it.

Rust was more popular and who could use that?
Rust is popular because of its ideas, not because it pandered.

On Sunday, 11 March 2018 at 01:45:01 UTC, psychoticRabbit wrote:
> On Sunday, 11 March 2018 at 01:36:51 UTC, Dylan Graham wrote:
>>
>> The D Language Foundation, being the leading body of D, should hold some responsibility to the interests of the majority.
>
>
> And also the minority. A lesson that humanity has to learn over and over again.

Despite the fact that D struggles to interface with itself yet the priorities of the foundation are to make D easily interface with C? I don't care if they listen to the minority, but make sure your priorities are in line before doing so. I think BetterC will be something useful in the future, not now.

On Sunday, 11 March 2018 at 01:36:51 UTC, Dylan Graham wrote:

>
> The D Language Foundation, being the leading body of D, should hold some responsibility to the interests of the majority.

Please read my post from earlier:

https://forum.dlang.org/post/chsqspkoxbcdqjcqbfjc@forum.dlang.org

The survey *will* have an influence on what gets priority in the future, but it certainly can't be seen as representing the majority of D programming interests.


>
> It is not a dictatorship (read this sentence over and over till you get it).

No one is forcing you to use BetterC and its existence doesn't change anything about how you can use the language. Obviously, there are a number of areas that need work. The survey can help decide which of those to put resources into first, but it doesn't mean that other things deemed important have to be dropped.