On Tuesday, 18 October 2016 at 20:51:24 UTC, Karabuta wrote:
>
> They will not understand. Those are the UX stuff you learn when you are a web designer/developer.

True. Anybody can make a website. A website that is efficient, takes time. A stupid travel booking website took over a year with constant meeting to design around here. The result is a efficient design but it takes time.

> It is easy to not understand the impact when your already know D. Test it on a new user and see. Moreover, unless D is not meant to be a first programming language to learn, then we are far from gaining new adopters with the current information.

Its the same issue with other languages. Go has the advantage of being a big brand name thanks to Google and that is a big part of its success. When looking at Nim or other languages, you always see the issue of elitist thinking ( its not a insult ). People who are so used to the language, that they do not understand how some of there code example are too complex for beginners.

I ended ordering Ali's book "Programming in D" yesterday because after seeing his Youtube Dcon2016 video, he knows how to explain topics to users. His multi thread youtube video was very informative yet, relative to the topic simple to understand. And his book reviews reflect this also.

No offense to Andrei, while his is funny, he is simply thinking above my head. Walter is actually better at explain things.

I have no problem admitting that my skills are horrible after being stuck for the last 15 years in PHP ( and perl a few years ). It also means that when something is above my head, i instantly notice that.

> The tour examples are clearly written by people who have less/limited/lacking teaching skills.

The Learn / Tour is not bad. Far from it. Its just too technical.

Having dealt with a series of alternative languages, the dlang website is well designed and more user friendly then a lot like nim, crystal ...


But the dlang site is too much designed around people who already have a C/C++ interest. Those same type of people that you will NOT easily convert to D because they already have powerful tools available. There are a few reviews about D online, that state the same issue. D is more powerful then C++ but converting people from that mature ecosystem, even with C++ its flaws, is difficult.

> How do you win a visitor's interest in 2-5 seconds?

By using simple to the point communication.

= First time programmers:

* A simple example. Lets say a bit more advanced then "Hello World" but not so advanced that we trow template at there face.

= Somebody with a PHP/Scripting background ( big potential group ):

* A http server example ( vibe.d? ). With some benchmarks where it beats PHP/Apache ( people are stat whores *lol* ).

Etc ...

Its the same reason why the home page needs a multi-tab example sheet.

People see first example, its interesting but they want to see more. They click on tab 2, tab 3, ... going down the examples. Each showing more & more the power of D.

Or even better, the tabs rotate every x seconds if you are not holding your mouse over them.

Going full C++ hog on the first example, simply limits your market potential. If a C++ programmer comes here, there is less change that he is pushed away from a first simple language example, then the reverse. Where a non-advanced programmer comes here and is confronted with a more advanced example.

The fact that D supports a lot of templates is besides the point. Showing this is something in maybe the 3 or 4th example. You always first start with the basics.

----------

... Same reason why i mention a example page, where you can see a multitude of techniques in one go. Something to "Wet the beak" of people who first get introduced to the website.

----------

Another issue i noticed is the twitter channel. Too much Asian language posts. Its pushing away information for all the rest who do not speak Mandarin/Japanese? It simply does not present cleanly. There needs to be some moderating going on there.


Like i said, this is all from my perspective as a D newbie. And i am not afraid to say that i am a D newbie :)

On Tuesday, 18 October 2016 at 20:51:24 UTC, Karabuta wrote:
> On Tuesday, 18 October 2016 at 10:04:35 UTC, Benjiro wrote:
>> On Tuesday, 18 October 2016 at 09:26:56 UTC, Chris wrote:
>
>> The issue is, that in order to understand the example, you are already required to have a knowledge of the language.
>>
>> I can only use myself as a example. Only started to really use D a few days ago because i have a specific project. I instantly look for the methods that interest me, totally bypassing half the manual. The ! looked like a operator and not a template.
>>
>> To show you how much a nice example flow matters: a month or 3 ago ( because of this future project ) i started to look at several languages: Go, Nim, Haxe, etc...
>>
>> Notice something missing? Yes... i knew about D but totally skipped it for two reasons. Its the same reasons as to why Rust got skipped. I did not like the syntax example's. And in case of D, the whole community issue with D1 vs D2 in several reddit topics that still gets propagated.
>>
>
> They will not understand. Those are the UX stuff you learn when you are a web designer/developer.

How do you know "they" will not understand? Maybe they do.

> It is easy to not understand the impact when your already know D. Test it on a new user and see. Moreover, unless D is not meant to be a first programming language to learn, then we are far from gaining new adopters with the current information. The tour examples are clearly written by people who have less/limited/lacking teaching skills.

At the beginning, D was not meant to be a "first language", but this has changed over time. In fact, almost all new modern languages that emerge now have features that D has, like templates, !boo ;), so beginners will have to learn them regardless of what new language they pick. Thus, D is no longer "worse" or "more complicated".

> How do you win a visitor's interest in 2-5 seconds?

Put a scantily dressed lady on your page ;)

Seriously, there will always be those who will prefer shiny buttons and fancy talk to facts or usability.

On Wednesday, 19 October 2016 at 09:32:29 UTC, Chris wrote:
>
> At the beginning, D was not meant to be a "first language", but this has changed over time. In fact, almost all new modern languages that emerge now have features that D has, like templates, !boo ;), so beginners will have to learn them regardless of what new language they pick. Thus, D is no longer "worse" or "more complicated".
>
>> How do you win a visitor's interest in 2-5 seconds?
>
> Put a scantily dressed lady on your page ;)

Yep ... instant 1000+ visitors, just the wrong kind.

Now, if it was a programming challenge and and you can code to undress. Now that will draw in the right kind. *haha*

> Seriously, there will always be those who will prefer shiny buttons and fancy talk to facts or usability.

Its that what is actually the issue. The fact that some think people want fancy buttons.

And no offense but basic D is just the same as basic PHP. They are all C languages. If somebody can start in PHP, they can start in D. The big difference is that there is much more materials available for PHP, so people more easily start.

It also helps that you do not need to do a lot of setting things up for PHP ( web hosts ready ). Where as with D, you need to download the compiler, have a root server etc ( if your looking at web programming ).

If you give a novice a D basic hello world or a PHP basic hello world, they can get going with both at the same level. Same with some high level ( basic logic if/else, loops, etc ). That is all the same or so simulare.

But when you trow people into the deep end with pipeline one-liners, templates, mapping etc... sorry but that is way above a lot of people there first experience with a language.

You have 3 class of people:

* Total newbies: People who want to see something simple. If i do x, then i get y. Ooooo, shiny. *lol*

* People with some experience in other languages: They look for similarities, they try to match there logic to the new language. This is actually a big group of potential recruits. A lot of those are actually self-taught programmers.

* People with large experience: They are advanced programmers. Linking advanced features from one language to another is no issue. They can quickly tell from the summary what the real advantages of a language are. All the programming lingo is no issue for them.

The current homepage example is in my option, right between group 2 and 3. And its disregarding group one and two.

On Wednesday, 19 October 2016 at 09:51:50 UTC, Benjiro wrote:
[snip]

>
> And no offense but basic D is just the same as basic PHP. They are all C languages. If somebody can start in PHP, they can start in D. The big difference is that there is much more materials available for PHP, so people more easily start.
>
> It also helps that you do not need to do a lot of setting things up for PHP ( web hosts ready ). Where as with D, you need to download the compiler, have a root server etc ( if your looking at web programming ).
>
> If you give a novice a D basic hello world or a PHP basic hello world, they can get going with both at the same level. Same with some high level ( basic logic if/else, loops, etc ). That is all the same or so simulare.
>
> But when you trow people into the deep end with pipeline one-liners, templates, mapping etc... sorry but that is way above a lot of people there first experience with a language.

While very basic D is indeed like C, the truth is that you'll soon get stuck, if you know nothing about templates.

> You have 3 class of people:
>
> * Total newbies: People who want to see something simple. If i do x, then i get y. Ooooo, shiny. *lol*

They're welcome. But without hard work, they won't get far in any language.

> * People with some experience in other languages: They look for similarities, they try to match there logic to the new language. This is actually a big group of potential recruits. A lot of those are actually self-taught programmers.

I agree. But again, without templates and ranges, they won't get far. The danger is that you wouldn't want to teach them D the wrong way, only for them to find out later that "that's not how you do it". Better tell them from the start. Introduce on concept at a time.

> * People with large experience: They are advanced programmers. Linking advanced features from one language to another is no issue. They can quickly tell from the summary what the real advantages of a language are. All the programming lingo is no issue for them.
>
> The current homepage example is in my option, right between group 2 and 3. And its disregarding group one and two.

Sure there's nothing wrong with adding one or two "simpler" examples. But it shouldn't be just plain C. Have you had a look at this page:

https://p0nce.github.io/d-idioms/

Maybe you can find something you like and think it'd be a good example.

On 10/19/16 5:28 AM, Benjiro wrote:
> No offense to Andrei, while his is funny, he is simply thinking above my
> head. Walter is actually better at explain things.

None taken! And thanks for your feedback. I think you have an easy means of helping progress here. Simply send more code snippets for the homepage (the kind you believe would have helped you). Post them here or aggregate them in a bugzilla issue and we'll add them to the rotating pool. We clearly need more examples of varying difficulties. -- Andrei

On 20/10/2016 12:08 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
> On 10/19/16 5:28 AM, Benjiro wrote:
>> No offense to Andrei, while his is funny, he is simply thinking above my
>> head. Walter is actually better at explain things.
>
> None taken! And thanks for your feedback. I think you have an easy means
> of helping progress here. Simply send more code snippets for the
> homepage (the kind you believe would have helped you). Post them here or
> aggregate them in a bugzilla issue and we'll add them to the rotating
> pool. We clearly need more examples of varying difficulties. -- Andrei

On that note, maybe we should setup a 'real code' pool so people can see real code, preferably on a few files big that does a specific but useful task.

On Wednesday, 19 October 2016 at 11:30:03 UTC, rikki cattermole wrote:
> On 20/10/2016 12:08 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
>
> On that note, maybe we should setup a 'real code' pool so people can see real code, preferably on a few files big that does a specific but useful task.

Actually, that'd be great.

On Wednesday, 19 October 2016 at 09:28:28 UTC, Benjiro wrote:
> On Tuesday, 18 October 2016 at 20:51:24 UTC, Karabuta wrote:
>> [...]
>
> True. Anybody can make a website. A website that is efficient, takes time. A stupid travel booking website took over a year with constant meeting to design around here. The result is a efficient design but it takes time.
>
> [...]

On Wednesday, 19 October 2016 at 09:28:28 UTC, Benjiro wrote:

I like this guy :) (You are the first person I ever liked here)

On Wednesday, 19 October 2016 at 20:46:08 UTC, Karabuta wrote:
> On Wednesday, 19 October 2016 at 09:28:28 UTC, Benjiro wrote:
>> On Tuesday, 18 October 2016 at 20:51:24 UTC, Karabuta wrote:
>>> [...]
>>
>> True. Anybody can make a website. A website that is efficient, takes time. A stupid travel booking website took over a year with constant meeting to design around here. The result is a efficient design but it takes time.
>>
>> [...]
>
> On Wednesday, 19 October 2016 at 09:28:28 UTC, Benjiro wrote:
>
> I like this guy :) (You are the first person I ever liked here)

I.e. "He agrees with me, therefore I like him!" One year of meetings to design a website does not necessarily mean the site's good or that it has to take at least a year until you have a presentable website. Designing a website for a company means that the marketing knobs feel they have to throw in their 2 cents and want them acted upon or they block the whole process - then at the end, all of a sudden the boss - who never cared for the website - wants to have a look too and here we go again... We're talking about font-sizes, gradient colors, button 2px to the left, company logo bigger/smaller etc, not about the page logic. Of course, because they know nothing about programming they go by what they see and try to make a contribution there, just for the sake of it.

Unfortunately, it is often forgotten that each website needs a different, unique approach. Getting inspiration from other websites is good, trying to copy them is not a good idea, because it will never serve your purpose optimally.

The real craftsmanship behind a website is mastering the various technologies that don't work smoothly together (HTML, JS, PHP, forms, requests, server side stuff, browsers, data bases). Web design is 90% page logic, 10% inspiration.

On Wednesday, 19 October 2016 at 09:51:50 UTC, Benjiro wrote:
>
> The current homepage example is in my option, right between group 2 and 3. And its disregarding group one and two.

What about setting up snippets about things people want to know about straight away like:

1. OOP
2. Functional programming
3. Multi-threading

and then go into more specific stuff

4. Ranges
[...]

What did you want to know about as a newbie? I suppose server related stuff, which is vibe.d.