You've reminded me of when I took a trip to Germany in 1997, I tried to send an email from an Internet cafe -- I couldn't find an "at sign" (@) on the keyboard, finally I pasted one from some website.

My main argument is that a programming language _is a language_. The word "if" in D isn't English, it's D. And you can't change it without defining a new language.

Now of course C went a long way toward using a lot of non-alphabetic characters rather than "words", and perhaps that can be taken to its logical conclusion and have no "keywords" in some language, yuck.

Another solution would be to go with something like the .Net languages and compile to some intermediate language. And allow the IL to be decompiled into your choice of dialect (as if).

In article <btv3hm$2n5q$1@digitaldaemon.com>, Georg Wrede says...
>
>
>                        Hear, hear!!
>
>I never program in Finnish either. And the only difference would be about the same as for the Swedes, Germans, etc., which is just a few additional umaluts to ASCII. Never in my wildest nightmares have I evere considered a variable name with an umlaut!
>
>Also, since programming languages THEMSELVES are heavily based
>on English, or at least the Western mind set, it would
>be a travesty to pretend (or even worse, actually believe
>oneself) that we're aiming for a programming language that is
>"programmable in [any non-western origin language]".
>
>The end result would only be the kind of mess Windows has
>done to everybody by allowing spaces in file names. It's
>hard to use Windows partitions in Unix, half of Windows
>programs can't cope with spaces in paths, some of Windows itself
>can't cope either.
>

I wholeheartedly agree, Microsoft really screwed up with this.
But of course I'm a VMS guy and I think file names should be all caps and
contain at most one dot.

>and perhaps that can be taken to its logical conclusion >and have no
"keywords" in some language, yuck.

See bf : http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/bf/ :)

C

"The Lone Haranguer" <The_member@pathlink.com> wrote in message news:btvqav$pqv$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> You've reminded me of when I took a trip to Germany in 1997, I tried to
send an
> email from an Internet cafe -- I couldn't find an "at sign" (@) on the
keyboard,
> finally I pasted one from some website.
>
> My main argument is that a programming language _is a language_. The word
"if"
> in D isn't English, it's D. And you can't change it without defining a new language.
>
> Now of course C went a long way toward using a lot of non-alphabetic
characters
> rather than "words", and perhaps that can be taken to its logical
conclusion and
> have no "keywords" in some language, yuck.
>
> Another solution would be to go with something like the .Net languages and compile to some intermediate language. And allow the IL to be decompiled
into
> your choice of dialect (as if).
>
> In article <btv3hm$2n5q$1@digitaldaemon.com>, Georg Wrede says...
> >
> >
> >                        Hear, hear!!
> >
> >I never program in Finnish either. And the only difference would be about the same as for the Swedes, Germans, etc., which is just a few additional umaluts to ASCII. Never in my wildest nightmares have I evere considered a variable name with an umlaut!
> >
> >Also, since programming languages THEMSELVES are heavily based
> >on English, or at least the Western mind set, it would
> >be a travesty to pretend (or even worse, actually believe
> >oneself) that we're aiming for a programming language that is
> >"programmable in [any non-western origin language]".
> >
> >The end result would only be the kind of mess Windows has
> >done to everybody by allowing spaces in file names. It's
> >hard to use Windows partitions in Unix, half of Windows
> >programs can't cope with spaces in paths, some of Windows itself
> >can't cope either.
> >
>
> I wholeheartedly agree, Microsoft really screwed up with this.
> But of course I'm a VMS guy and I think file names should be all caps and
> contain at most one dot.
>

C wrote:
>>and perhaps that can be taken to its logical conclusion >and have no
> 
> "keywords" in some language, yuck.
> 
> See bf : http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/bf/ :)
> 
> C

BF is really interesting.  It's the ultimate simplification of a programming language.

If you want evil, K is about as frightening as a real (as in actually useful) programming language gets: <http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2002/11/14/22741/791>

Malbolge takes the next logical step, claiming the crown of nastiest programming language ever concieved (let alone implemented): <http://www.mines.edu/students/b/bolmstea/malbolge/>.

(the latter of which features a single trinary operation that's more or less an arbitrary trit transposition)

 -- andy

"Georg Wrede" <Georg_member@pathlink.com> wrote in message news:btv3hm$2n5q$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> Entering times and dates is impossible in Excel, because Finland uses the same separator (sic) for time and date. 30 years ago there was an initiative in Europe to have only one format for date, time, and decimals, but that became a fistfight. Eventually they gave up, with the excuse "well, in just a couple of years computers will be smart enough to blow this problem from existence". Ha!

In Norway, the function names in Excel are translated to Norwegian, making the sheets impossible to use elsewhere...

Lars Ivar Igesund

Thats cool I remember seeing K on kuroshin and thinking Id like to learn it , never got around to it though.  Maybe Ill give it a second go.

C

"Andy Friesen" <andy@ikagames.com> wrote in message news:btvrn8$s1l$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> C wrote:
> >>and perhaps that can be taken to its logical conclusion >and have no
> >
> > "keywords" in some language, yuck.
> >
> > See bf : http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/bf/ :)
> >
> > C
>
> BF is really interesting.  It's the ultimate simplification of a programming language.
>
> If you want evil, K is about as frightening as a real (as in actually useful) programming language gets: <http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2002/11/14/22741/791>
>
> Malbolge takes the next logical step, claiming the crown of nastiest programming language ever concieved (let alone implemented): <http://www.mines.edu/students/b/bolmstea/malbolge/>.
>
> (the latter of which features a single trinary operation that's more or less an arbitrary trit transposition)
>
>   -- andy

Whitespace is the funniest language I've ever seen.  :) http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/whitespace/


"Andy Friesen" <andy@ikagames.com> wrote in message news:btvrn8$s1l$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> C wrote:
> >>and perhaps that can be taken to its logical conclusion >and have no
> >
> > "keywords" in some language, yuck.
> >
> > See bf : http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/bf/ :)
> >
> > C
>
> BF is really interesting.  It's the ultimate simplification of a programming language.
>
> If you want evil, K is about as frightening as a real (as in actually useful) programming language gets: <http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2002/11/14/22741/791>
>
> Malbolge takes the next logical step, claiming the crown of nastiest programming language ever concieved (let alone implemented): <http://www.mines.edu/students/b/bolmstea/malbolge/>.
>
> (the latter of which features a single trinary operation that's more or less an arbitrary trit transposition)
>
>   -- andy

lol!

on an OT : Im going to make DIDE unicode mainly for the use in Japan.  Im going to add an option to set the code page to Shift-JIS , but I've never written a unicode app before.  I'm using MFC , should i leave the MBCS , change everything to wchar_t ( wstring, wifstream ) , or do i need do define UNICODE  ?

Thanks, sorry for the ignorance :S.

C
"Robert" <no@spam.ne.jp> wrote in message
news:bu14ed$3090$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> Whitespace is the funniest language I've ever seen.  :) http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/whitespace/
>
>
> "Andy Friesen" <andy@ikagames.com> wrote in message news:btvrn8$s1l$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> > C wrote:
> > >>and perhaps that can be taken to its logical conclusion >and have no
> > >
> > > "keywords" in some language, yuck.
> > >
> > > See bf : http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/bf/ :)
> > >
> > > C
> >
> > BF is really interesting.  It's the ultimate simplification of a programming language.
> >
> > If you want evil, K is about as frightening as a real (as in actually useful) programming language gets: <http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2002/11/14/22741/791>
> >
> > Malbolge takes the next logical step, claiming the crown of nastiest programming language ever concieved (let alone implemented): <http://www.mines.edu/students/b/bolmstea/malbolge/>.
> >
> > (the latter of which features a single trinary operation that's more or less an arbitrary trit transposition)
> >
> >   -- andy
>

Just a revision ( im still reading , seems like theres alot of stuff to do with unicode, looks like a nightmare! ).

Ill be defining _UNICODE and UNICODE, and using TCHAR'ed STL ( see attached ) but there are some things I dont understand and have no way to confirm other than asking.

Apparently there are 4 charater sets ( Kanji, Hiragana, Katakana, and Romaji ? ) and I'm not sure how that relates to the whole thing , and what does Shift-JIS use ?.  And does a japanese system use native charater sets for filenames ?  is their a C:\  and similar partiions, or is that renamed ? And apparently tofstream ( the TCHAR version ) does NOT create unicode files , that needs some sort of header (  0xFEFF ? )?  Without will the app explode ?  Does using TCHAR mean that the file name will correctly display in the ListBox ?  Ill keep reading any help u can offer is aprreciated.

C[lueless]



"C" <dont@respond.com> wrote in message news:bu1gbo$kbp$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> lol!
>
> on an OT : Im going to make DIDE unicode mainly for the use in Japan.  Im going to add an option to set the code page to Shift-JIS , but I've never written a unicode app before.  I'm using MFC , should i leave the MBCS , change everything to wchar_t ( wstring, wifstream ) , or do i need do
define
> UNICODE  ?
>
> Thanks, sorry for the ignorance :S.
>
> C
> "Robert" <no@spam.ne.jp> wrote in message
> news:bu14ed$3090$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> > Whitespace is the funniest language I've ever seen.  :) http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/whitespace/
> >
> >
> > "Andy Friesen" <andy@ikagames.com> wrote in message news:btvrn8$s1l$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> > > C wrote:
> > > >>and perhaps that can be taken to its logical conclusion >and have no
> > > >
> > > > "keywords" in some language, yuck.
> > > >
> > > > See bf : http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/bf/ :)
> > > >
> > > > C
> > >
> > > BF is really interesting.  It's the ultimate simplification of a programming language.
> > >
> > > If you want evil, K is about as frightening as a real (as in actually useful) programming language gets: <http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2002/11/14/22741/791>
> > >
> > > Malbolge takes the next logical step, claiming the crown of nastiest programming language ever concieved (let alone implemented): <http://www.mines.edu/students/b/bolmstea/malbolge/>.
> > >
> > > (the latter of which features a single trinary operation that's more
or
> > > less an arbitrary trit transposition)
> > >
> > >   -- andy
> >
>
>

> Syntax of Shift-JIS
Shift-JIS needs one or two bytes per character.

One-byte character set:
    ASCII code   : 0x00-0x7F
    Hankaku-Kana : 0xA0-0xDF

Two-byte character set:
    First byte  : 0x81-0xFC
    Second byte : 0x40-0xFC except 0x7F

For example, x"44 20 82CC 835C 815B 8358 82CC 955C 8B4C 9640" is a valid
Shift-JIS string.
(Note that 835C and 955C include the same codes as backslash (5C) at the
second bytes.


> Relation between Unicode and Shift-JIS
is especially none.
So, the conversion is not simple if implementing whole by oneself.
These can be converted each other through
MultiByteToWideChar/WideCharToMultiByte APIs,
or mbstowcs/wcstombs functions.


> Filenames in Japanese
can be used.
Note that second byte of some two-byte characters is backslash,
but it is NOT taken as a separator of directory names.


> that needs some sort of header (  0xFEFF ? )?
Yes.
See: http://www.digitalmars.com/d/lex.html


> tofstream ( the TCHAR version ) does NOT create unicode files
I confirmed it in VC++ 7.0.
Perhaps it is correct, but I'm not sure...
Maybe using CFile and writing unicode strings with .Write method is better.


> TCHAR, WinAPIs, and _tcs functions
These allows us to switch char/wchar_t and the subroutines with _MBCS and
_UNICODE macros.
They are important things, but it is not a way to handle unicode text.
They are only for switching 'A'/'W' APIs and 'str'/'_mbs'/'_wcs' functions
depending on the environment.

To handle MBCS or unicode text directly,
char/wchar_t, 'A'/'W' APIs or '_mbs'/'_wcs' functions should be used
directly, too,.



"C" <dont@respond.com> wrote in message news:bu1psv$14ne$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> Just a revision ( im still reading , seems like theres alot of stuff to do with unicode, looks like a nightmare! ).
>
> Ill be defining _UNICODE and UNICODE, and using TCHAR'ed STL ( see attached ) but there are some things I dont understand and have no way to confirm other than asking.
>
> Apparently there are 4 charater sets ( Kanji, Hiragana, Katakana, and
Romaji
> ? ) and I'm not sure how that relates to the whole thing , and what does Shift-JIS use ?.  And does a japanese system use native charater sets for filenames ?  is their a C:\  and similar partiions, or is that renamed ? And apparently tofstream ( the TCHAR version ) does NOT create unicode
files
> , that needs some sort of header (  0xFEFF ? )?  Without will the app explode ?  Does using TCHAR mean that the file name will correctly display in the ListBox ?  Ill keep reading any help u can offer is aprreciated.
>
> C[lueless]
>
>
>
> "C" <dont@respond.com> wrote in message news:bu1gbo$kbp$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> > lol!
> >
> > on an OT : Im going to make DIDE unicode mainly for the use in Japan.
Im
> > going to add an option to set the code page to Shift-JIS , but I've
never
> > written a unicode app before.  I'm using MFC , should i leave the MBCS , change everything to wchar_t ( wstring, wifstream ) , or do i need do
> define
> > UNICODE  ?
> >
> > Thanks, sorry for the ignorance :S.
> >
> > C

On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 10:27:45 +0100, Lars Ivar Igesund <larsivar@igesund.net> wrote:

> In Norway, the function names in Excel are translated to Norwegian,
> making the sheets impossible to use elsewhere...

Same for German, that's the most stupid thing I have ever seen. It would be OK if the english version would work in a shadow way... but hey, it's MS the 50% company.

-- 
Robert M. Münch
Management & IT Freelancer
http://www.robertmuench.de