On Tuesday, June 05, 2018 19:15:12 biocyberman via Digitalmars-d-announce wrote:
> On Tuesday, 5 June 2018 at 11:09:31 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
> > [...]
>
> Very informative. I don't live in the US, but this gives me a feeling of how tough life can be over there for everyone, except lawyers.

Fortunately, it's not usually a problem, but it's something that any programmer who writes code in their free time has to be aware of. In most cases, if you have a reasonable employer, you can do whatever programming you want in your free time so long as it's not related to what you work on at work. But it is occasionally a problem.

- Jonathan M Davis

On Tue, 2018-06-05 at 13:43 -0600, Jonathan M Davis via Digitalmars-d- announce wrote:
> […]
> 
> Fortunately, it's not usually a problem, but it's something that any
> programmer who writes code in their free time has to be aware of. In
> most
> cases, if you have a reasonable employer, you can do whatever
> programming
> you want in your free time so long as it's not related to what you
> work on
> at work. But it is occasionally a problem.

It is worth noting that any employer who understands software development and is involved in software development will write into the contract of employment that all software created by an employee at any time is the property of the employer. However, they must also have a system for explicitly allowing employees to work on code in their own time (or even on company time) that is then contributed under some licence or other. The point here is that the employee effectively has first refusal on all software created.

This is of course in the jurisdiction of England & Wales, but Scotland is no different really. I'll bet this is true in the various jurisdictions of the USA.

-- 
Russel.
===========================================
Dr Russel Winder      t: +44 20 7585 2200
41 Buckmaster Road    m: +44 7770 465 077
London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk

On Tuesday, 5 June 2018 at 06:55:42 UTC, Joakim wrote:
> On Tuesday, 5 June 2018 at 06:45:48 UTC, Adam Wilson wrote:
>> Hello Fellow D'ers,
>>
>> As some of you know I work for Microsoft. And as a result of the recent acquisition of GitHub by Microsoft, I have decided, out of an abundance of caution, to move all of my projects that currently reside on GitHub to GitLab.
>>
>> [...]
>
> This reads like a joke, why would it matter if you contributed to open source projects on an open platform that your employer runs?

It can be easily argued as using company assets for a side project, and gets into situations where now your company owns the IP of the thing you built on your own time. Even without using company assets a lot of employers try to add something into contracts that everything you do is owned by them, even in your off hours with no resources and not particularly related to your day job. It's pretty ridiculous.

On 6/6/2018 2:17 AM, Russel Winder wrote:
> It is worth noting that any employer who understands software
> development and is involved in software development will write into the
> contract of employment that all software created by an employee at any
> time is the property of the employer. However, they must also have a
> system for explicitly allowing employees to work on code in their own
> time (or even on company time) that is then contributed under some
> licence or other. The point here is that the employee effectively has
> first refusal on all software created.


Oh, employers do try that. I would negotiate what is mine and what is the company's, before signing. In particular, I'd disclose all projects I'd worked on before, and get a specific acknowledgement that those were not the company's. When I'd moonlight, before I'd do so, I'd describe the project on a piece of paper and get acknowledgement from the company that it is not their project.

And I never had any trouble about it.

(These days, life is a bit simpler. One thing I like about Github is the software is all date stamped, so I could, for instance, prove I wrote it before joining company X.)

On 06/09/2018 01:47 AM, Walter Bright wrote:
> 
> Oh, employers do try that. I would negotiate what is mine and what is the company's, before signing. In particular, I'd disclose all projects I'd worked on before, and get a specific acknowledgement that those were not the company's. When I'd moonlight, before I'd do so, I'd describe the project on a piece of paper and get acknowledgement from the company that it is not their project.
> 
> And I never had any trouble about it.
> 
> (These days, life is a bit simpler. One thing I like about Github is the software is all date stamped, so I could, for instance, prove I wrote it before joining company X.)
> 

Maybe naive, maybe not, but my policy is that: Any hour of any day an employer claims ***ANY*** influence over, must be paid for ($$$) by said employer when attempting to make ANY claim on that hour of my life. Period.

There are already far too many would-be-slavedrivers^H^H^H^H^H^H^employers who attempt to stake claim to the hours of a human being's life WHICH THEY DO *NOT* COMPENSATE FOR.

If an employer *does not* pay me for an hour of my life which they *claim control over*, then the employer WILL NOT BE MY EMPLOYER. Period.

If others held themselves to the same basic standards, then nobody in the world would ever be slave^H^H^H^H^Hpersonal-property to a business which makes claim to a human life without accepted compensation.

On Saturday, June 09, 2018 04:03:40 Nick Sabalausky  via Digitalmars-d- announce wrote:
> On 06/09/2018 01:47 AM, Walter Bright wrote:
> > Oh, employers do try that. I would negotiate what is mine and what is the company's, before signing. In particular, I'd disclose all projects I'd worked on before, and get a specific acknowledgement that those were not the company's. When I'd moonlight, before I'd do so, I'd describe the project on a piece of paper and get acknowledgement from the company that it is not their project.
> >
> > And I never had any trouble about it.
> >
> > (These days, life is a bit simpler. One thing I like about Github is the software is all date stamped, so I could, for instance, prove I wrote it before joining company X.)
>
> Maybe naive, maybe not, but my policy is that: Any hour of any day an employer claims ***ANY*** influence over, must be paid for ($$$) by said employer when attempting to make ANY claim on that hour of my life. Period.
>
> There are already far too many would-be-slavedrivers^H^H^H^H^H^H^employers who attempt to stake claim to the hours of a human being's life WHICH THEY DO *NOT* COMPENSATE FOR.
>
> If an employer *does not* pay me for an hour of my life which they *claim control over*, then the employer WILL NOT BE MY EMPLOYER. Period.
>
> If others held themselves to the same basic standards, then nobody in the world would ever be slave^H^H^H^H^Hpersonal-property to a business which makes claim to a human life without accepted compensation.

Well, the actual, legal situation doesn't always match what it arguably should be, and anyone working on salary doesn't technically get paid for any specific hours. So, that sort of argument doesn't necessarily fly.

Also, there _is_ potentially a legitimate concern on the part of the employer. If you use your free time to write the same sort of stuff that you write for work, you're potentially using their IP. In particular, they really don't want you going home and writing a competing product using all of the knowledge you got working for them. And legally, attempting to do anything like that (in the US at least) will almost certainly get you in legal trouble if your employer finds out.

The real problem is when employers try to claim anything unrelated to your job that you do in your free time. _That_ is completely inappropriate, but some employers try anyway, and depending on which state you live in and what you signed for the company, they may or may not be able to come after you even if it's ridiculous for them to be able to.

- Jonathan M Davis

On 6/9/2018 1:03 AM, Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) wrote:
> Maybe naive, maybe not, but my policy is that: Any hour of any day an employer claims ***ANY*** influence over, must be paid for ($$$) by said employer when attempting to make ANY claim on that hour of my life. Period.

If that's the deal you want, then negotiate for it.

On 09/06/2018 9:57 PM, Walter Bright wrote:
> On 6/9/2018 1:03 AM, Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) wrote:
>> Maybe naive, maybe not, but my policy is that: Any hour of any day an employer claims ***ANY*** influence over, must be paid for ($$$) by said employer when attempting to make ANY claim on that hour of my life. Period.
> 
> If that's the deal you want, then negotiate for it.

It's called the law in New Zealand :)

On Fri, 2018-06-08 at 22:47 -0700, Walter Bright via Digitalmars-d-announce wrote:
> 
[…]
> Oh, employers do try that. I would negotiate what is mine and what is the
> company's, before signing. In particular, I'd disclose all projects I'd
> worked
> on before, and get a specific acknowledgement that those were not the
> company's.
> When I'd moonlight, before I'd do so, I'd describe the project on a piece
> of
> paper and get acknowledgement from the company that it is not their project.

Not only should employers try that, they must do that or fail in their responsibilities to the shareholders.

But that is the point, all the employer needs to know is that any software you
do outside the company does not compete with or  "steal" stuff from inside the
company. Openness and straightforwardness is all that is required so all
parties know what is going on.

> And I never had any trouble about it.

Any potential employer not behaving reasonably, is an employer not to work for.

> (These days, life is a bit simpler. One thing I like about Github is the
> software is all date stamped, so I could, for instance, prove I wrote it
> before
> joining company X.)

And of course, non-GPL and LGPL software on GItHub, GitLab, BitBucket, Launchpad, are there fore the taking: why pay people when you can use their work free of charge. ;-)

-- 
Russel.
===========================================
Dr Russel Winder      t: +44 20 7585 2200
41 Buckmaster Road    m: +44 7770 465 077
London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk

On Sat, 2018-06-09 at 04:03 -0400, Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) via Digitalmars-
d-announce wrote:
> 
[…]
> Maybe naive, maybe not, but my policy is that: Any hour of any day an employer claims ***ANY*** influence over, must be paid for ($$$) by said employer when attempting to make ANY claim on that hour of my life. Period.

Employees involved in intellectual endeavour need to be beholden to the employer at all times since the employee might have ideas useful to the employer at any time. This is a complicated issue and extreme positions are not helpful.  But everyone to their own.

> There are already far too many would-be-slavedrivers^H^H^H^H^H^H^employers who attempt to stake claim to the hours of a human being's life WHICH THEY DO *NOT* COMPENSATE FOR.

This is why permissive software licences were invented, so people would do lots of work on FOSS and then companies could use it for their own money making purposes without any thought of paying anyone anything.

> If an employer *does not* pay me for an hour of my life which they *claim control over*, then the employer WILL NOT BE MY EMPLOYER. Period.

Salaries are like that, employers own you 24/7.

> If others held themselves to the same basic standards, then nobody in the world would ever be slave^H^H^H^H^Hpersonal-property to a business which makes claim to a human life without accepted compensation.

It's all about supply and demand in this currently capitalist world. You can bet there will be someone who will do it even if you won't. How else do the "sweat shops" work.

Openness, compromise, accommodation, and collaboration work best in what is a fundamentally combative, us vs them economic system.

-- 
Russel.
===========================================
Dr Russel Winder      t: +44 20 7585 2200
41 Buckmaster Road    m: +44 7770 465 077
London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk