> Sociomantic team only half an year ago. Initially my motivation was mostly C++ frustration outrage but I was pleasantly surprised by work environment here, which is very open-minded and task-focused, something you don't expect considering all the Germany cliches :)

They learned this in the end from all the foreign spies in Berlin
... I started looking into D a bit mostly out of frustration with
Java staying put for years, too much dependency on XML, change
towards commodity programing, etc. Other JVM languages are either
loaded with too many incoherent features (Scala), only dynamic
add-on to Java (Groovy), not there yet (Kotlin), etc. D seems to
me the best choice (looked also at Go, Objective-C, Rust, C# and
others), but my impression is that you should have been doing
some serious C or C++ before. I wonder whether it's worth diving
into D without a serious background in C/C++. Will be fun at
home, but jobwise it won't count. Really a pitty. Maybe the best
is to wait for Kotlin. Don't know ... What do you think how much
C/C++ skills are beneficial?

-- Bienlein

On Monday, 4 November 2013 at 14:01:32 UTC, Bienlein wrote:
> Don't know ... What do you think how much
> C/C++ skills are beneficial?
>
> -- Bienlein

I think those are beneficial to dig into some more level parts but not absolutely necessary. As current deployed code base is still D1/Tango, it has look&feel quite similar to Java (contrary to more procedural/template thing modern Phobos endorses). Being a good programmer is more important than knowing a specific language anyway. And applying never harms ;)

On Sunday, 3 November 2013 at 12:55:26 UTC, deadalnix wrote:
> On Sunday, 3 November 2013 at 11:47:13 UTC, Gary Willoughby wrote:
>> On Sunday, 3 November 2013 at 06:01:28 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
>>> Anyone interested send me a resume and I'll hook you in.
>>>
>>> Andrei
>>
>> I'm not of the calibre Facebook is looking for but i had to exclaim that is fantastically generous of you Andrei.
>>
>> I'm lucky in that i've been using D fulltime in my work since May and loving every minute of it. (Porting several database daemons from C to D, it's amazing how much less code there is in D!).
>
> I usually notice that people who lack doubt tends to do worse than the ones with doubt in their skills.

People with doubts: I know that I don't know everything.
People without doubts: I don't know that I don't know everything.

On Monday, 4 November 2013 at 14:01:32 UTC, Bienlein wrote:
>> Sociomantic team only half an year ago. Initially my motivation was mostly C++ frustration outrage but I was pleasantly surprised by work environment here, which is very open-minded and task-focused, something you don't expect considering all the Germany cliches :)
>
> They learned this in the end from all the foreign spies in Berlin
> ... I started looking into D a bit mostly out of frustration with
> Java staying put for years, too much dependency on XML, change
> towards commodity programing, etc. Other JVM languages are either
> loaded with too many incoherent features (Scala), only dynamic
> add-on to Java (Groovy), not there yet (Kotlin), etc. D seems to
> me the best choice (looked also at Go, Objective-C, Rust, C# and
> others), but my impression is that you should have been doing
> some serious C or C++ before. I wonder whether it's worth diving
> into D without a serious background in C/C++. Will be fun at
> home, but jobwise it won't count. Really a pitty. Maybe the best
> is to wait for Kotlin. Don't know ... What do you think how much
> C/C++ skills are beneficial?
>
> -- Bienlein

Knowledge of Java should be enough to get started. As with all new languages, you'll have to be open-minded and willing to learn new concepts, which is an important skill in software development anyway.

"Who D is Not For
- As a first programming language - Basic or Java is more suitable for beginners. D makes an excellent second language for intermediate to advanced programmers."
(http://dlang.org/overview.html)

Since you are already unhappy with other languages and also know why, I think you are ready to dive into D. I'm sure you'll recognize most of the features in this list:

http://dlang.org/comparison.html

On Monday, 4 November 2013 at 14:01:32 UTC, Bienlein wrote:
> Will be fun at
> home, but jobwise it won't count. Really a pitty.
>
> -- Bienlein

You never know. If you're interested in D, go for it, you have got nothing to lose. Maybe companies will soon look for programmers with skills in D.

On Monday, 4 November 2013 at 15:58:48 UTC, Chris wrote:
> "Who D is Not For
> - As a first programming language - Basic or Java is more suitable for beginners. D makes an excellent second language for intermediate to advanced programmers."
> (http://dlang.org/overview.html)

I'd argue against this. I think D would make a terrific first language. Remember, you wouldn't start with metaprogramming on day one. If you started with the basics using simple syntax and introduce the compiler incrementally it would be very educational. IMHO new programmers should start by learning how memory works, what binary is, how big built-in types are, etc. I am continually amazed when working with seasoned developers who have no idea why floats aren't precise, what a pointer is or what or bit-shifting does. It's staggering.

I personally also think BASIC is a total waste of time for beginners. I does something to peoples minds that once they learn it, they never want to use anything else ever again. I totally agree with the following quote:

"It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration." -Edsger W. Dijkstra

Years ago i was part of a BASIC community and the flamewars about even thinking about new technologies were something to behold.

Something like C or D (i'd opt for D) should be any devs first language. Simply to educate them in the basics.

On Monday, 4 November 2013 at 16:22:52 UTC, Gary Willoughby wrote:
> On Monday, 4 November 2013 at 15:58:48 UTC, Chris wrote:
>> "Who D is Not For
>> - As a first programming language - Basic or Java is more suitable for beginners. D makes an excellent second language for intermediate to advanced programmers."
>> (http://dlang.org/overview.html)
>
> I'd argue against this. I think D would make a terrific first language.
(...)
>
> Something like C or D (i'd opt for D) should be any devs first language. Simply to educate them in the basics.

I would say that it really depends on the age too. D as a first language for an 18 year-old technically savvy person might work, but for a 10 year-old?

And for a non-english speaker? I remember having a very hard time reading English books when I was younger (there might be many programming books for languages with a lot of speakers, but not for all languages), and had  difficulties grokking pointers and bit operations. Of course, kids today is much better at English at a young age due to the internet etc., but it's still a lot of new terminology you aren't used to.

Being in college now, I see a lot of grown-ups *really* struggling to grasp *basic* programming concepts using Java (even most of the teachers unfortunately). Starting with a limited language like Java probably isn't that bad until you are capable of both reading and writing non-trivial code.

I doubt most people here are representative for the average programmer. Many of the discussions here are way over my head, but I still hope that I'm above average.

On Monday, 4 November 2013 at 16:49:10 UTC, simendsjo wrote:
> On Monday, 4 November 2013 at 16:22:52 UTC, Gary Willoughby wrote:
>> On Monday, 4 November 2013 at 15:58:48 UTC, Chris wrote:
>>> "Who D is Not For
>>> - As a first programming language - Basic or Java is more suitable for beginners. D makes an excellent second language for intermediate to advanced programmers."
>>> (http://dlang.org/overview.html)

I think this claim on the website is a hold over from the dark
days of D language evolution and lack of documentation.  It
should go!

>>
>> I'd argue against this. I think D would make a terrific first language.

I agree.

> (...)
>>
>> Something like C or D (i'd opt for D) should be any devs first language. Simply to educate them in the basics.
>
> I would say that it really depends on the age too. D as a first language for an 18 year-old technically savvy person might work, but for a 10 year-old?
>
> And for a non-english speaker? I remember having a very hard time reading English books when I was younger (there might be many programming books for languages with a lot of speakers, but not for all languages), and had  difficulties grokking pointers and bit operations. Of course, kids today is much better at English at a young age due to the internet etc., but it's still a lot of new terminology you aren't used to.

But if you are Turkish, you're set!

>
> Being in college now, I see a lot of grown-ups *really* struggling to grasp *basic* programming concepts using Java (even most of the teachers unfortunately). Starting with a limited language like Java probably isn't that bad until you are capable of both reading and writing non-trivial code.

While D code can quickly become complex relative to Java, at the
same time I think in a beginner course/book could easily be geared
to keep away from D's fancier features and just teach basics.
For example, code for reading a text file in in Java is (top
answer on SO):

static String readFile(String path, Charset encoding)
   throws IOException
{
   byte[] encoded = Files.readAllBytes(Paths.get(path));
   return encoding.decode(ByteBuffer.wrap(encoded)).toString();
}

vs.

readText(filename)

in D. Not really up on Java these days, so perhaps Java now
includes a readText() like method now.  Anyway, hard to beat the
D version for
easy!

> I doubt most people here are representative for the average programmer. Many of the discussions here are way over my head, but I still hope that I'm above average.

Hey, that is how I feel.  When I talk with other programmers at
work/school I feel pretty smart.  When I come on here, I feel
like a moron.

On Monday, 4 November 2013 at 16:22:52 UTC, Gary Willoughby wrote:
> Something like C or D (i'd opt for D) should be any devs first language. Simply to educate them in the basics.

In Soviet Russia you do assembly in primary school :)

On Monday, 4 November 2013 at 16:49:10 UTC, simendsjo wrote:
> On Monday, 4 November 2013 at 16:22:52 UTC, Gary Willoughby wrote:
>> On Monday, 4 November 2013 at 15:58:48 UTC, Chris wrote:
>>> "Who D is Not For
>>> - As a first programming language - Basic or Java is more suitable for beginners. D makes an excellent second language for intermediate to advanced programmers."
>>> (http://dlang.org/overview.html)
>>
>> I'd argue against this. I think D would make a terrific first language.
> (...)
>>
>> Something like C or D (i'd opt for D) should be any devs first language. Simply to educate them in the basics.
>
> I would say that it really depends on the age too. D as a first language for an 18 year-old technically savvy person might work, but for a 10 year-old?

Well I was looking at Z80 Assembly code at the age of 12.