"Hardware does get faster more rapidly than software gets slower -- I'm finding Eclipse perfectly usable on modern hardware."

https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/383334141078429697

I would have liked some more details on what he is using Eclipse for though. Is it Android development? And even so, is it just Java or C/C++ too? Especially significant given Manu's recent comments that:
"I've never met a C++ developer that likes Eclipse ;)"
:p

-- 
Bruno Medeiros - Software Engineer

On 27 September 2013 21:35, Bruno Medeiros <brunodomedeiros+dng@gmail.com>wrote:

> "Hardware does get faster more rapidly than software gets slower -- I'm finding Eclipse perfectly usable on modern hardware."
>
> https://twitter.com/ID_AA_**Carmack/status/**383334141078429697<https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/383334141078429697>
>
> I would have liked some more details on what he is using Eclipse for
> though. Is it Android development? And even so, is it just Java or C/C++
> too? Especially significant given Manu's recent comments that:
> "I've never met a C++ developer that likes Eclipse ;)"
> :p


Carmack is perhaps the games industry's most renowned anti-C++ user. He rejected C++ for decades, I'm not sure what his current stance is ;) And I haven't met John Carmack...

On Friday, 27 September 2013 at 11:35:29 UTC, Bruno Medeiros wrote:
> "Hardware does get faster more rapidly than software gets slower -- I'm finding Eclipse perfectly usable on modern hardware."
>
> https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/383334141078429697
>
> I would have liked some more details on what he is using Eclipse for though. Is it Android development? And even so, is it just Java or C/C++ too? Especially significant given Manu's recent comments that:
> "I've never met a C++ developer that likes Eclipse ;)"
> :p

This guy has been trying to re-write on of his old games in Haskell (can't remember which one).

Are you seriously considering him a typical C++ game developer? :D

On Friday, 27 September 2013 at 11:49:54 UTC, Dicebot wrote:
> On Friday, 27 September 2013 at 11:35:29 UTC, Bruno Medeiros wrote:
>> "Hardware does get faster more rapidly than software gets slower -- I'm finding Eclipse perfectly usable on modern hardware."
>>
>> https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/383334141078429697
>>
>> I would have liked some more details on what he is using Eclipse for though. Is it Android development? And even so, is it just Java or C/C++ too? Especially significant given Manu's recent comments that:
>> "I've never met a C++ developer that likes Eclipse ;)"
>> :p
>
> This guy has been trying to re-write on of his old games in Haskell (can't remember which one).
>
> Are you seriously considering him a typical C++ game developer? :D

Doom, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PhArSujR_A

As for C++, he is one of the guys in the industry pushing forward for using static analysis in C++.

http://www.altdevblogaday.com/2011/12/24/static-code-analysis/

And actually uses C++ since Doom 3 (2004), http://kotaku.com/454293019.

As for his aversion to C++, I remember the performance discussions about C and Pascal versus Assembly. Hey back then, even with my Pascal background, I was convinced that Assembly was more than enough!

Then came the discussions of C vs C++, with personalities like Carmack and Abrash taking the C side.

And nowadays, like C has taken most Assembly use cases, just to be followed by C++. Now we can even watch a few OS being coded in C++, which was unthinkable back in the C vs C++ war days.

So I always smile when I see discussions about performance of language implementations.

--
Paulo

On Friday, 27 September 2013 at 12:50:02 UTC, PauloPinto wrote:
> On Friday, 27 September 2013 at 11:49:54 UTC, Dicebot wrote:
>> On Friday, 27 September 2013 at 11:35:29 UTC, Bruno Medeiros wrote:
>>> "Hardware does get faster more rapidly than software gets slower -- I'm finding Eclipse perfectly usable on modern hardware."
>>>
>>> https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/383334141078429697
>>>
>>> I would have liked some more details on what he is using Eclipse for though. Is it Android development? And even so, is it just Java or C/C++ too? Especially significant given Manu's recent comments that:
>>> "I've never met a C++ developer that likes Eclipse ;)"
>>> :p
>>
>> This guy has been trying to re-write on of his old games in Haskell (can't remember which one).
>>
>> Are you seriously considering him a typical C++ game developer? :D
>
> Doom, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PhArSujR_A
>
> As for C++, he is one of the guys in the industry pushing forward for using static analysis in C++.
>
> http://www.altdevblogaday.com/2011/12/24/static-code-analysis/
>
> And actually uses C++ since Doom 3 (2004), http://kotaku.com/454293019.
>
> As for his aversion to C++, I remember the performance discussions about C and Pascal versus Assembly. Hey back then, even with my Pascal background, I was convinced that Assembly was more than enough!
>
> Then came the discussions of C vs C++, with personalities like Carmack and Abrash taking the C side.
>
> And nowadays, like C has taken most Assembly use cases, just to be followed by C++. Now we can even watch a few OS being coded in C++, which was unthinkable back in the C vs C++ war days.
>
> So I always smile when I see discussions about performance of language implementations.

Carmack is a very humble C++ programmer, though. In one of the last QuakeCon keynotes he said something like "I think I have nearly figured out how to use C++."

On Fri, Sep 27, 2013 at 07:12:27PM +0200, qznc wrote:
[...]
> Carmack is a very humble C++ programmer, though. In one of the last QuakeCon keynotes he said something like "I think I have nearly figured out how to use C++."

No, he's just a very honest programmer. I doubt if *anyone* has figured out how to use C++.  (That is, in a way that is actually correct and bug-free. There are, of course, many ways of writing C++ code, and most of them are wrong. I don't know if we have found a way to write C++ code that isn't wrong by definition or 99% buggy.)


T

-- 
The two rules of success: 1. Don't tell everything you know. -- YHL

Am 27.09.2013 19:26, schrieb H. S. Teoh:
> On Fri, Sep 27, 2013 at 07:12:27PM +0200, qznc wrote:
> [...]
>> Carmack is a very humble C++ programmer, though. In one of the last
>> QuakeCon keynotes he said something like "I think I have nearly
>> figured out how to use C++."
>
> No, he's just a very honest programmer. I doubt if *anyone* has figured
> out how to use C++.  (That is, in a way that is actually correct and
> bug-free. There are, of course, many ways of writing C++ code, and most
> of them are wrong. I don't know if we have found a way to write C++ code
> that isn't wrong by definition or 99% buggy.)
>
>
> T
>

By writing D instead. :)

I do like C++, but every time I look what is happening post C++11, tend to be glad to spend most of my time in JVM/.NET land, specially because I deal a lot with teams full of developers with an average skill set.



--
Paulo

On Friday, 27 September 2013 at 11:44:33 UTC, Manu wrote:
> On 27 September 2013 21:35, Bruno Medeiros <brunodomedeiros+dng@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> "Hardware does get faster more rapidly than software gets slower -- I'm
>> finding Eclipse perfectly usable on modern hardware."
>>
>> https://twitter.com/ID_AA_**Carmack/status/**383334141078429697<https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/383334141078429697>
>>
>> I would have liked some more details on what he is using Eclipse for
>> though. Is it Android development? And even so, is it just Java or C/C++
>> too? Especially significant given Manu's recent comments that:
>> "I've never met a C++ developer that likes Eclipse ;)"
>> :p
>
>
> Carmack is perhaps the games industry's most renowned anti-C++ user. He
> rejected C++ for decades, I'm not sure what his current stance is ;)
> And I haven't met John Carmack...

He switched to C++ for id Tech 4 (Doom 3).  They started work on Doom 3 in 2000 from what I can gather so he's been on the C++ trolley for 13 years.

Here's some comments of his about the C++ use in id Tech 4: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTI3NDQ

On Friday, 27 September 2013 at 17:12:29 UTC, qznc wrote:
> On Friday, 27 September 2013 at 12:50:02 UTC, PauloPinto wrote:
>> On Friday, 27 September 2013 at 11:49:54 UTC, Dicebot wrote:
>>> On Friday, 27 September 2013 at 11:35:29 UTC, Bruno Medeiros wrote:
>>>> "Hardware does get faster more rapidly than software gets slower -- I'm finding Eclipse perfectly usable on modern hardware."
>>>>
>>>> https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/383334141078429697
>>>>
>>>> I would have liked some more details on what he is using Eclipse for though. Is it Android development? And even so, is it just Java or C/C++ too? Especially significant given Manu's recent comments that:
>>>> "I've never met a C++ developer that likes Eclipse ;)"
>>>> :p
>>>
>>> This guy has been trying to re-write on of his old games in Haskell (can't remember which one).
>>>
>>> Are you seriously considering him a typical C++ game developer? :D
>>
>> Doom, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PhArSujR_A
>>
>> As for C++, he is one of the guys in the industry pushing forward for using static analysis in C++.
>>
>> http://www.altdevblogaday.com/2011/12/24/static-code-analysis/
>>
>> And actually uses C++ since Doom 3 (2004), http://kotaku.com/454293019.
>>
>> As for his aversion to C++, I remember the performance discussions about C and Pascal versus Assembly. Hey back then, even with my Pascal background, I was convinced that Assembly was more than enough!
>>
>> Then came the discussions of C vs C++, with personalities like Carmack and Abrash taking the C side.
>>
>> And nowadays, like C has taken most Assembly use cases, just to be followed by C++. Now we can even watch a few OS being coded in C++, which was unthinkable back in the C vs C++ war days.
>>
>> So I always smile when I see discussions about performance of language implementations.
>
> Carmack is a very humble C++ programmer, though. In one of the last QuakeCon keynotes he said something like "I think I have nearly figured out how to use C++."

It's more that unskilled programmers unknowingly exaggerate their proficiency, I think.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 12:35:29 +0100
Bruno Medeiros <brunodomedeiros+dng@gmail.com> wrote:

> "Hardware does get faster more rapidly than software gets slower --
> 

Well, when you're in an industry that's constantly upgrading to the latest top-of-the-line hardware, perhaps; for everyone else, certainly not.