On Saturday, 28 October 2017 at 16:23:13 UTC, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:
> 64 bit is an added hassle, but an unnecessary one for most uses anyway.

Today I thought I might install DMD on Windows XP 64bit (the intel one)... just to see if I can compile D with -m64.

Well, with the Windows7 SDK and DMD installed, -m64 worked just fine.

So D continues to surprise me, and now even supports (seems to anyway) a platform that everyone gave up on a long time ago .. isn't that great!

64bit D ... on Windows XP...

On Saturday, 28 October 2017 at 15:42:00 UTC, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:
> Why do you want 64 bit? I very rarely do 64 bit builds on Windows (mostly just to make sure my crap actually works) since there's not actually that many advantages to it anyway!

Because native. I believe Linux doesn't have 32-bit subsystem installed by default, Windows started to do it too.

On Monday, 30 October 2017 at 10:53:33 UTC, Kagamin wrote:
> On Saturday, 28 October 2017 at 15:42:00 UTC, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:
>> Why do you want 64 bit? I very rarely do 64 bit builds on Windows (mostly just to make sure my crap actually works) since there's not actually that many advantages to it anyway!
>
> Because native. I believe Linux doesn't have 32-bit subsystem

Ha i thought the same but... Yes it has one. Just setup the 32 bit version of the devel libraries (likely not necessary for phobos) and you can compile & link with -m32.

On Monday, 30 October 2017 at 08:21:56 UTC, Joakim wrote:
> That's funny, because you're the only one using that routine.  I've linked to extensive data showing that Windows is already dying in the thread that I gave you, specifically my first and last posts in that thread.  You seem not to be able to follow such links and data, as you not only don't acknowledge but seemingly flatly deny the ongoing PC sales decline?  The collapse is next.
>

I don't see why anyone would deny a PC sales decline, but it doesn't imply a collapse. I would expect more of a decline and then a stabilization. One reason is that the enterprise market is slow moving and a big component of PC sales. I dispute that the average white collar worker isn't going to be doing a bunch of work in Word/Excel/PowerPoint on a laptop or desktop ten years from now. Maybe twenty years from now, I don't know?

I'm not really sure what the point of all this is. I have no intention of doing data analysis on a smart phone any time in the next ten years. I don't see why anyone would. So my main use case for D is probably not going anywhere. And I get stuck using Windows at work because everything's slow moving and there's no way I'm gonna be switching to Linux there. The whole Windows is dying is too far off to be relevant to things I need to actually accomplish.

On Monday, 30 October 2017 at 11:18:39 UTC, Basile B. wrote:
> Ha i thought the same but... Yes it has one.

The first 32 bit application will pull it as a dependency. Same can be done for JVM.

> Just setup the 32 bit version of the devel libraries

BTW why are those even needed? Doesn't ld link against so directly?

On Monday, 30 October 2017 at 12:30:12 UTC, jmh530 wrote:
> On Monday, 30 October 2017 at 08:21:56 UTC, Joakim wrote:
>> That's funny, because you're the only one using that routine.  I've linked to extensive data showing that Windows is already dying in the thread that I gave you, specifically my first and last posts in that thread.  You seem not to be able to follow such links and data, as you not only don't acknowledge but seemingly flatly deny the ongoing PC sales decline?  The collapse is next.
>>
>
> I don't see why anyone would deny a PC sales decline, but it doesn't imply a collapse. I would expect more of a decline and then a stabilization. One reason is that the enterprise market is slow moving and a big component of PC sales. I dispute that the average white collar worker isn't going to be doing a bunch of work in Word/Excel/PowerPoint on a laptop or desktop ten years from now. Maybe twenty years from now, I don't know?

The decline itself doesn't imply a collapse, the collapse is coming because the mobile market is looking for new growth avenues and releasing mobile accessories like Samsung's DeX dock or laptop replacements like the iPad Pro or this laptop shell:

https://sentio.com

Mobile convergence killed off standalone mp3 players, e-readers, GPS devices, point-and-shoot cameras, feature phones, a whole host of former mobile single-purpose devices.  They're going after the PC now, with all the massive scale of the mobile wave:

https://twitter.com/lukew/status/842397687420923904

Can the PC market withstand that tidal wave?  I'm betting not.

As for the average white collar worker in a decade, if they're using Google Docs on their Samsung S18 connected to something like that Sentio laptop shell, do you really imagine they won't be able to get their work done?  I think it's more likely they're using software completely different than Office or Docs to get their work done, as those suites are already way outdated by now, but that's a different tangent.

> I'm not really sure what the point of all this is. I have no intention of doing data analysis on a smart phone any time in the next ten years. I don't see why anyone would. So my main use case for D is probably not going anywhere. And I get stuck using Windows at work because everything's slow moving and there's no way I'm gonna be switching to Linux there. The whole Windows is dying is too far off to be relevant to things I need to actually accomplish.

I don't know how intense your data analysis is, but I replaced a Win7 ultrabook that had a dual-core i5 and 4 GBs of RAM with an Android tablet that has a quad-core ARMv7 and 3 GBs of RAM as my daily driver a couple years ago, without skipping a beat.  I built large mixed C++/D codebases on my ultrabook, now I do that on my Android/ARM tablet, which has a slightly weaker chip than my smartphone.

The latest ARM-based iPad Pro is notorious for beating low to mid-range Intel Macbooks on benchmarks.  It is not difficult to pick up smartphones with 6-8 GBs of RAM nowadays.  Unless you need monster machines for your data and aren't allowed to crunch your data on online servers for security reasons, a very niche case, you can very likely do it on a smartphone.

You may be right that your particular workplace moves slowly and they're not going mobile anytime soon.  But this is such a big shift that you have to wonder if many such slow-moving workplaces will be able to compete with places that don't: just ask all the taxi companies phoning in rides to their drivers who got put out of business by Lyft, Uber, and their smartphone-wielding hordes of drivers.

There will always be a few Windows cockroaches that survive the mobile nuclear blast, but we're talking about the majority who won't.

As for you particularly, I can't speak to your situation without knowing more, but nobody's saying D should drop Windows support.  I started off this OT thread by saying that investing more time in getting D somewhere close to the level of C#/C++ support in Visual Studio or some other IDE is a waste of time.  I stand by that.  If Rainer or someone else does it anyway, that's up to them how they want to spend their time.

On Monday, 30 October 2017 at 10:53:33 UTC, Kagamin wrote:
> Because native.

The processor natively supports all 32 bit code when running in 64 bit more. It just works as far as native hardware goes.

You also need your library dependencies installed too, and indeed on Linux that might be an extra install (just like any other dependencies...), but on Windows, the 32 bit core libs are always installed and with D, you don't really use other stuff anyway.

D on Windows 32 bit just works and generates an exe that just works on basically any Windows box from the last 15 years and will likely continue to just work for AT LEAST the next 5, probably more.

If you're playing around... really no reason not to just use the 32 bit one.

On Monday, 30 October 2017 at 13:32:23 UTC, Joakim wrote:
>
> The decline itself doesn't imply a collapse, the collapse is coming because the mobile market is looking for new growth avenues and releasing mobile accessories like Samsung's DeX dock or laptop replacements like the iPad Pro or this laptop shell:
>
> https://sentio.com

I look at this and just wonder why people wouldn't just have a laptop.

>
> Mobile convergence killed off standalone mp3 players, e-readers, GPS devices, point-and-shoot cameras, feature phones, a whole host of former mobile single-purpose devices.  They're going after the PC now, with all the massive scale of the mobile wave:
>
> https://twitter.com/lukew/status/842397687420923904
>
> Can the PC market withstand that tidal wave?  I'm betting not.
>

And what does this show, a huge increase in smart phone/tablet shipments and a modest decline in desktop sales. I don't dispute this. Smart phones are leading to a huge increase in the amount of people who use computers on a daily basis. A whole bunch of people who use PCs may switch to just using smartphones/tablets. However, some people do need and want them. And they will continue to use them.

> As for the average white collar worker in a decade, if they're using Google Docs on their Samsung S18 connected to something like that Sentio laptop shell, do you really imagine they won't be able to get their work done?  I think it's more likely they're using software completely different than Office or Docs to get their work done, as those suites are already way outdated by now, but that's a different tangent.

Okay, but Google Docs isn't supported at my company. Microsoft Office is. We have a huge number of Excel files that use a lot of features that probably can't be ported over to Google Docs without a bunch of work. They might be able to get us to make new stuff with Google Docs, but we're still gonna need Excel for all the old stuff (so why bother switching). There's a reason why banks still use Cobol.

Now I would love to move everything to R/Python. It could be done. But not everyone knows R/Python, but everyone knows Excel. If I get hit by a bus, then someone can figure out what I've done and get to work.

>
> I don't know how intense your data analysis is, but I replaced a Win7 ultrabook that had a dual-core i5 and 4 GBs of RAM with an Android tablet that has a quad-core ARMv7 and 3 GBs of RAM as my daily driver a couple years ago, without skipping a beat.
>  I built large mixed C++/D codebases on my ultrabook, now I do that on my Android/ARM tablet, which has a slightly weaker chip than my smartphone.

I would have gobbled up 4GB using Matlab 5 years ago...Nowadays, I sometimes use a program called Stan. It does Hamiltonian Monte Carlo. Often it takes 10 minutes to run models on my home machine that's got a relatively new i7 processor on it. It's not unknown for the models to take hours with bigger data sets or more complicated models. I don't even like running the models at work because my work computer sucks compared to my home computer.

>
> The latest ARM-based iPad Pro is notorious for beating low to mid-range Intel Macbooks on benchmarks.  It is not difficult to pick up smartphones with 6-8 GBs of RAM nowadays.  Unless you need monster machines for your data and aren't allowed to crunch your data on online servers for security reasons, a very niche case, you can very likely do it on a smartphone.

Doing everything on an AWS instance would be nice.

>
> You may be right that your particular workplace moves slowly and they're not going mobile anytime soon.  But this is such a big shift that you have to wonder if many such slow-moving workplaces will be able to compete with places that don't: just ask all the taxi companies phoning in rides to their drivers who got put out of business by Lyft, Uber, and their smartphone-wielding hordes of drivers.

We certainly have big competitive issues, but they aren't because our competitors are using Google Docs.

>
> There will always be a few Windows cockroaches that survive the mobile nuclear blast, but we're talking about the majority who won't.
>
> As for you particularly, I can't speak to your situation without knowing more, but nobody's saying D should drop Windows support.  I started off this OT thread by saying that investing more time in getting D somewhere close to the level of C#/C++ support in Visual Studio or some other IDE is a waste of time.  I stand by that.  If Rainer or someone else does it anyway, that's up to them how they want to spend their time.

Look at the growth of Python. Among the many drivers of that, are people who use Numpy and its ecosystem (SciPy, Pandas, etc.). The work that Ilya et al are doing on Mir is a fantastic effort to provide similar functionality for D. More users using Mir will help build out the ecosystem and hopefully get it to a competitive place with Numpy one day. This requires more people using D. If efforts by Rainer or someone else to make the Windows experience better and leads to more D users and more Mir users, then I consider a positive. I don't consider it a waste of time.

On Monday, 30 October 2017 at 15:46:56 UTC, jmh530 wrote:
> On Monday, 30 October 2017 at 13:32:23 UTC, Joakim wrote:
>>
>> The decline itself doesn't imply a collapse, the collapse is coming because the mobile market is looking for new growth avenues and releasing mobile accessories like Samsung's DeX dock or laptop replacements like the iPad Pro or this laptop shell:
>>
>> https://sentio.com
>
> I look at this and just wonder why people wouldn't just have a laptop.

Expense is one major reason, just buy a laptop shell for $150 and connect it to the smartphone you already have.  Another is that most new apps are developed for mobile nowadays, since the PC market is shrinking.

>> Mobile convergence killed off standalone mp3 players, e-readers, GPS devices, point-and-shoot cameras, feature phones, a whole host of former mobile single-purpose devices.  They're going after the PC now, with all the massive scale of the mobile wave:
>>
>> https://twitter.com/lukew/status/842397687420923904
>>
>> Can the PC market withstand that tidal wave?  I'm betting not.
>>
>
> And what does this show, a huge increase in smart phone/tablet shipments and a modest decline in desktop sales. I don't dispute this. Smart phones are leading to a huge increase in the amount of people who use computers on a daily basis. A whole bunch of people who use PCs may switch to just using smartphones/tablets. However, some people do need and want them. And they will continue to use them.

Yes, the question is how big is that group that will stick with PCs: do you think it will be 5% of the peak 2011 sales of 350 million PCs or 50% by 2027?  Right now, it's down to 75%, which I'd call more than "modest," and keeps heading lower.  For a comparison, standalone, ie non-smartphone, camera sales are down 80% from their peak and keep plunging lower:

https://petapixel.com/2017/03/03/latest-camera-sales-chart-reveals-death-compact-camera/

I don't see how PCs can avoid a similar fate.

>> As for the average white collar worker in a decade, if they're using Google Docs on their Samsung S18 connected to something like that Sentio laptop shell, do you really imagine they won't be able to get their work done?  I think it's more likely they're using software completely different than Office or Docs to get their work done, as those suites are already way outdated by now, but that's a different tangent.
>
> Okay, but Google Docs isn't supported at my company. Microsoft Office is. We have a huge number of Excel files that use a lot of features that probably can't be ported over to Google Docs without a bunch of work. They might be able to get us to make new stuff with Google Docs, but we're still gonna need Excel for all the old stuff (so why bother switching). There's a reason why banks still use Cobol.

Excel is available on Android and the Samsung S8 too, along with multiwindow use on the DeX desktop dock.  Such legacy use will indeed keep some old tech alive, but just as most don't use COBOL anymore, most won't be using that old tech.

> Now I would love to move everything to R/Python. It could be done. But not everyone knows R/Python, but everyone knows Excel. If I get hit by a bus, then someone can figure out what I've done and get to work.

Sure, and they will likely be able to use it with Excel for Android too.  Btw, Python is available as a package in the Termux Android app that I use when programming on my tablet:

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.termux&hl=en

Some people are working to get R on there too.

>> I don't know how intense your data analysis is, but I replaced a Win7 ultrabook that had a dual-core i5 and 4 GBs of RAM with an Android tablet that has a quad-core ARMv7 and 3 GBs of RAM as my daily driver a couple years ago, without skipping a beat.
>>  I built large mixed C++/D codebases on my ultrabook, now I do that on my Android/ARM tablet, which has a slightly weaker chip than my smartphone.
>
> I would have gobbled up 4GB using Matlab 5 years ago...Nowadays, I sometimes use a program called Stan. It does Hamiltonian Monte Carlo. Often it takes 10 minutes to run models on my home machine that's got a relatively new i7 processor on it. It's not unknown for the models to take hours with bigger data sets or more complicated models. I don't even like running the models at work because my work computer sucks compared to my home computer.
>
>>
>> The latest ARM-based iPad Pro is notorious for beating low to mid-range Intel Macbooks on benchmarks.  It is not difficult to pick up smartphones with 6-8 GBs of RAM nowadays.  Unless you need monster machines for your data and aren't allowed to crunch your data on online servers for security reasons, a very niche case, you can very likely do it on a smartphone.
>
> Doing everything on an AWS instance would be nice.

All the low-hanging fruit is being gobbled up by mobile, and most of the heavy compute by cloud servers.  That leaves a narrow niche in between for beefy desktops, since most PCs sold are laptops.  Perhaps you are in that desktop niche, but I contend it isn't very big.

>> You may be right that your particular workplace moves slowly and they're not going mobile anytime soon.  But this is such a big shift that you have to wonder if many such slow-moving workplaces will be able to compete with places that don't: just ask all the taxi companies phoning in rides to their drivers who got put out of business by Lyft, Uber, and their smartphone-wielding hordes of drivers.
>
> We certainly have big competitive issues, but they aren't because our competitors are using Google Docs.

No, it happens when they streamline and automate their entire workflow much more, to the point where they aren't using antiquated document systems anymore:

http://ben-evans.com/benedictevans/2015/5/21/office-messaging-and-verbs

I've never written a single document in the entire time I've contributed to the D open source project.  That's because we replace that ancient document workflow with forums, email, gitter, bugzilla, git, and github, some of which is also fairly old tech, but not nearly so as typing up a bunch of documents or spreadsheets.

Of course, the D OSS project isn't a business, but the point is made in that linked post: most businesses are also about to transition away from that doc workflow altogether, where they simply replaced a bunch of printed documents and balance sheets with digital versions of the _same_ documents over the last couple decades.  It's time for them to make the true digital transition, or they will lose out to those who did and became more efficient for it.

Lyft and Uber are merely two public examples of the leading edge of this wave.

>> There will always be a few Windows cockroaches that survive the mobile nuclear blast, but we're talking about the majority who won't.
>>
>> As for you particularly, I can't speak to your situation without knowing more, but nobody's saying D should drop Windows support.  I started off this OT thread by saying that investing more time in getting D somewhere close to the level of C#/C++ support in Visual Studio or some other IDE is a waste of time.  I stand by that.  If Rainer or someone else does it anyway, that's up to them how they want to spend their time.
>
> Look at the growth of Python. Among the many drivers of that, are people who use Numpy and its ecosystem (SciPy, Pandas, etc.). The work that Ilya et al are doing on Mir is a fantastic effort to provide similar functionality for D. More users using Mir will help build out the ecosystem and hopefully get it to a competitive place with Numpy one day. This requires more people using D. If efforts by Rainer or someone else to make the Windows experience better and leads to more D users and more Mir users, then I consider a positive. I don't consider it a waste of time.

Do those Python/Numpy users have the level of VS or other Windows IDE support that D currently doesn't?  Either way, math modeling is such a small niche that I'm not sure it makes a difference, though I'm glad Ilya and others are pushing D in that direction on all OS's.

On Monday, 30 October 2017 at 16:50:42 UTC, Joakim wrote:
> [snip]
>
> No, it happens when they streamline and automate their entire workflow much more, to the point where they aren't using antiquated document systems anymore:
>
> http://ben-evans.com/benedictevans/2015/5/21/office-messaging-and-verbs
>
> I've never written a single document in the entire time I've contributed to the D open source project.  That's because we replace that ancient document workflow with forums, email, gitter, bugzilla, git, and github, some of which is also fairly old tech, but not nearly so as typing up a bunch of documents or spreadsheets.
>
> Of course, the D OSS project isn't a business, but the point is made in that linked post: most businesses are also about to transition away from that doc workflow altogether, where they simply replaced a bunch of printed documents and balance sheets with digital versions of the _same_ documents over the last couple decades.  It's time for them to make the true digital transition, or they will lose out to those who did and became more efficient for it.
>
> Lyft and Uber are merely two public examples of the leading edge of this wave.
>

You're making a broader point about Lyft and Uber that I agree with. Automating certain things and providing a digital platform has been very successful for them. But taxicab companies switching from Excel to Google docs wouldn't have solved anything for them. Taxicab companies in London and other places have found better ways to adapt (excepting through increased regulations) by offering their own apps to compete.

Similarly, the investment management industry (my industry) has seen a large increase in the share of passive management over the past 10 years (and a corresponding decline in the share of active management). Switching from Excel to Google docs is irrelevant. There are broader competitive forces at work.

Now, these competitive forces have been shaped by computer-driven investing and a reduction in costs. So in this sense, your broader point has validity, but perhaps the way you were expressing it with regard to Office vs. Google Docs was not convincing.

>
> Do those Python/Numpy users have the level of VS or other Windows IDE support that D currently doesn't?

You don't need VS with Python/Numpy, but python has a large number of IDEs available. I haven't used them, but they are there. The only thing I ever used was Ipython notebooks, which became Jupyter.