On 08/09/13 01:22, Flamaros wrote:
> I hope to see MonoD on github/d-programming-language too if it's the case of
> VisualD.

One thing that could help with MonoD would be if it could effectively support more than the most recent stable version of MonoDevelop.  Version 3.0 is still the one used in many Linux distros.  (4.0 is currently in the "proposed" updates for Ubuntu 13.10, which means it'll probably be the default by the time 13.10 is released.)

If VisualD can support VS 2010, 2011 and 2013, it's surely possible for MonoD to do something similar.

I recognize that the developer has provided an Ubuntu PPA for the latest MonoDevelop among other resources, but it's preferable not to oblige users to add extra archives to their distro.

Just for the sake of completeness:

mono is *detested* and considered even more inacceptable than java by many linux and (even more) *BSD users.

Actually I *did* try the eclipse D IDE thing ... and found it to match my (utterly negative) perception of java (which has pretty nothing to do with the D ide and pretty everything with eclipse). Concerning Mono-D I heard about it and respect the efforts of the creator(s) ... but never even looked at it (and never will until hell freezes).

I vaguely remember seeing colleagues work with Visual$$ on Windoze and they looked happy and productive to me.
For a reason: Visual$$ seems to serve quite nicely the needs and expectations of those developing on Windoze.

For fairness sake:
It's next to impossible to do the same (as Visual$$) on linux/BSD due to complexity and a fractured eco system. Gnome and QT/kde basically are religious issues and no matter which one one chooses one will have a large audience refusing it. Besides both are monstrous (and more often than not meet resistance or at the very minimum reluctance on the Windoze side). Fox and fltk are nice little thingies but not up to (todays) par lacking even functionality like printing. And so on.

That's quite regrettable, considering that we have a quite nice editor engine (Scintilla), quite good a debugger, and quite good compilers for pretty every language around.

That said, maybe my first reaction was too harsh. After all, it's not D's job to solve the linux gui troubles.
Having GDC with GDB working and some editors and even IDEs more or less working with D, I see that I should walk back a little and agree with the proposal (of this thread).

A+ -R

On 7 September 2013 22:57, Ramon <spam@thanks.no> wrote:
> On Saturday, 7 September 2013 at 20:02:37 UTC, Paulo Pinto wrote:
>>
>> Am 07.09.2013 21:55, schrieb Peter Alexander:
>>>
>>> On Saturday, 7 September 2013 at 19:39:21 UTC, Russel Winder wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Sadly, Visual Studio is a huge player in the game. Make the connection :-)
>>>
>>>
>>> Why sadly? It's a fantastic product.
>>
>>
>> The only thing I don't like is the reliance on Visual Assist and ReSharper for refactoring features that other IDEs offer out of the box.
>>
>> --
>> Paulo
>
>
> I'm both pro and against it.
>
> Pro because VisualD seems to be (Pardon me, I don't work on Windoze and didn't work with it but trust Windoze D users opinion on that) an excellent solution and supporting nicely what seems to be *the* IDE in Windoze world.
>

Love it or hate it, we call it Windows here.


> Against because we need a solution for *all* major platforms (Lx32, Lx64, *BSD, apple, w32,w64) and I'm worried that this resolution here might lead to a "So, we *do* have an IDE. Case closed" attitude.
>

Why not cross-platform instead of *just* the major platforms? :o)

-- 
Iain Buclaw

*(p < e ? p++ : p) = (c & 0x0f) + '0';

On 8 September 2013 22:00, Ramon <spam@thanks.no> wrote:
> Just for the sake of completeness:
>
> mono is *detested* and considered even more inacceptable than java by many linux and (even more) *BSD users.
>

Swings in roundabouts. Also depends what you mean by detest and inacceptable...

>From an ethical viewpoint, I think most of it is FUD that still
lingers from back when there was confusion over what Microsoft was going to do C# (there was for a long time fear that it would drive all free C# implementations underground).  But all that mist has been cleared for a while, and I don't believe this represents the overall view of users/developers - except for those who are still stuck in 2008 mindset.

Mono/C# as a language may be detested for technically sound reasons however...


Regards
-- 
Iain Buclaw

*(p < e ? p++ : p) = (c & 0x0f) + '0';

On Sunday, 8 September 2013 at 21:08:59 UTC, Iain Buclaw wrote:
> ...
>> Against because we need a solution for *all* major platforms (Lx32, Lx64,
>> *BSD, apple, w32,w64) and I'm worried that this resolution here might lead
>> to a "So, we *do* have an IDE. Case closed" attitude.
>>
>
> Why not cross-platform instead of *just* the major platforms? :o)

Because I have saved at least some crumbs of being realistic *g

I'm btw. *not* against Visual$$ and I *do* know and respect that it has a lot of happy and productive followers. MS has definitely done something quite right there.
My point isn't "Ignore Visual$$! Hehe" but rather "Please, make sure to have happy linux and BSD users, too!".

On Sunday, 8 September 2013 at 21:21:37 UTC, Iain Buclaw wrote:
> On 8 September 2013 22:00, Ramon <spam@thanks.no> wrote:
>> Just for the sake of completeness:
>>
>> mono is *detested* and considered even more inacceptable than java by many
>> linux and (even more) *BSD users.
>>
>
> Swings in roundabouts. Also depends what you mean by detest and inacceptable...

I'm, afraid it has shown to be quite senseless to resolve such issues by analysing and discussing adjectives.

>>From an ethical viewpoint, I think most of it is FUD that still
> lingers from back when there was confusion over what Microsoft was
> going to do C# (there was for a long time fear that it would drive all
> free C# implementations underground).  But all that mist has been
> cleared for a while, and I don't believe this represents the overall
> view of users/developers - except for those who are still stuck in
> 2008 mindset.

Then let me inform you from a practical viewpoint that I'm not stupid and ignorant enough to automatically refuse anything from MS just because it's from MS. I don't like them and I don't trust them a nanometer but I recognize (even publicly) and respect when they do something well - like Visual$$.
I'm btw. also advising clients in ca. 85% of cases to forget about Linux on the desktop and to use Windoze.
My reasons to "paranoically" avoid Windoze for *myself* are not political or religious but purely pragmatic.
tl;dr One is grossly mistaken when seeing myself as linux-taliban like anti-MS.

I've talked to Miguel in person and I have solid reasons to not consider or touch Mono. Kindly note that I'm not fudding or preaching against it - I simply state that I and many others will not, no matter matter what, touch it.

>
> Mono/C# as a language may be detested for technically sound reasons however...
>

Indeed. And those reasons might sometimes even be related to Mono.

A+ -R

On 9/8/13, Ramon <spam@thanks.no> wrote:
> Fox and fltk are
> nice little thingies but not up to (todays) par lacking even
> functionality like printing.

Printing seems like something that should be in a separate library, and maybe the GUI library would provide a nice interface over its functionality. I've no idea, but are there no such cross-platform libraries around?

On Sun, 08 Sep 2013 23:00:17 +0200
"Ramon" <spam@thanks.no> wrote:

> Visual$$ on Windoze

Let's stick to grown-up words here. I'm not a fan of MS or Win either, but every time you write "Windoze" or spell something with $ it does nothing to hurt MS/Win and only makes you and other Posix users look like immature brats.

On Saturday, 7 September 2013 at 19:05:03 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
> Recent threads here have made it pretty clear that VisualD is a critical piece of D infrastructure. (VisualD integrated D usage into Microsoft Visual Studio.)
>
> Andrei, myself and Rainer (VisualD's champion) are all in agreement on this.
>
> What do you think?

This is a great idea!

On Saturday, 7 September 2013 at 19:26:11 UTC, Peter Alexander wrote:
> Then it should be here: http://dlang.org/download.html
>
> That's the most important change that needs to be made.

This too.

Having VisualD listed in the github project and on the dlang.org website is a great step forward. I think it moves from having an IDE as "some thing you can use, that some guy made for the language," to being an "officially endorsed IDE for the language."

On Sunday, 8 September 2013 at 21:47:59 UTC, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:
> On 9/8/13, Ramon <spam@thanks.no> wrote:
>> Fox and fltk are
>> nice little thingies but not up to (todays) par lacking even
>> functionality like printing.
>
> Printing seems like something that should be in a separate library,
> and maybe the GUI library would provide a nice interface over its
> functionality. I've no idea, but are there no such cross-platform
> libraries around?

For some reason, probably to follow the situation on Windoze, printing is considered to belong to or at least to be very tightly coupled with the GUI. Technically speaking MS has solved printing by drawing to a "special canvas", which is somewhat unfortunate but actually not that bad conceptionally.

In part the problem is also to do with linux going another way that is smart, too, by somewhat decoupling printing and going for postcript.

Unfortunately this approach is quite different from Windoze (which still happens to own around 95% of the desktops) and also shows troublesome in a world of GDI printers (for many of which drivers exist nowadays in linux, too).

From developers point of view the Windows approach probably looks more natural and desirable; after all printing, at least often, *is* just drawing on another target (paper rather than screen) and, more importantly, postscript is more at the driver side than on the creation side.

tl;dr printing should be part of or at least reachable through the gui system.


On Sunday, 8 September 2013 at 21:47:59 UTC, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
> On Sun, 08 Sep 2013 23:00:17 +0200
> "Ramon" <spam@thanks.no> wrote:
>
>> Visual$$ on Windoze
>
> Let's stick to grown-up words here. I'm not a fan of MS or Win either,
> but every time you write "Windoze" or spell something with $ it does
> nothing to hurt MS/Win and only makes you and other Posix users look
> like immature brats.

Let's stick to the freedom of expressing oneself any (polite) way one sees fit as long as it's easily understandable.
For the uninitiated: '$' often indicates a placeholder in nixnux world.

With a friendly smile - the brat.

A+ -R

On 08/09/13 23:21, Iain Buclaw wrote:
> From an ethical viewpoint, I think most of it is FUD that still
> lingers from back when there was confusion over what Microsoft was
> going to do C# (there was for a long time fear that it would drive all
> free C# implementations underground).  But all that mist has been
> cleared for a while, and I don't believe this represents the overall
> view of users/developers - except for those who are still stuck in
> 2008 mindset.

I think there was a legit fear that if C# got a sufficient foothold in the Linux ecosystem, it'd provide a means for Microsoft to take everyone down via patent lawsuits.  It's still theoretically a risk, but I think strategically Microsoft seems to have reconsidered that approach.