June 21, 2013 Re: OT: CS education gone wrong (Was: Re: TDD is BS?) | ||||
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Posted in reply to Andrej Mitrovic | On 2013-06-21 08:33, Andrej Mitrovic wrote: > Seems like nowadays it's not too far-fetched to ask for a > github/bitbucket/etc username and see the work they've done, the way > they write code, contribute, etc. It should give a better "feel" than > any interview. I agree. Most interviews I have been on lately is due to my github project. -- /Jacob Carlborg |
June 21, 2013 Re: OT: CS education gone wrong (Was: Re: TDD is BS?) | ||||
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Posted in reply to H. S. Teoh | On 2013-06-21 07:57, H. S. Teoh wrote: > we got to ask HR to first > administer a technical test before any interviews are arranged; test > results are reviewed before deciding to interview the candidate I done tests like that, they all suck. This is how it usually works: You get a problem to solve. They say: "solve it anyway you want, using any language you want". You solve it farily quickly and straight forward. Then they say, "you are not allowed to use that function". Basically they're saying it's cheating. Then you remove that function and change the implementation accordingly. Then they say, "you are not allowed to use that other function". You change the code accordingly and this dance continues. Then you're thinking to yourself, "Am I supposed to reimplement the standard library?". I would say, most times, it's almost irresponsible to _not_ use the standard library. A bunch of people, a lot smarter than I, have had a good 20 years or so to perfect and fine tune the standard library. Not a chance in hell that I'm going to beat that, on an interview, with code written on a whiteboard. A side note. You're of curse not allowed to look at any documentation at all and you're not allowed to use a text editor. You write the code on a whiteboard, yes a _whiteboard_. That's just so stupid. That's not how programming works in the real world. Why the hell do they think IDE's have built in, easy to read/find, documentation. -- /Jacob Carlborg |
June 21, 2013 Re: TDD is BS? | ||||
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Posted in reply to Walter Bright | On 2013-06-20 22:22, Walter Bright wrote: > Well, it was your example :-) You got me there :) That's how you're supposed to write TDD according most strong believers. But I do some researcher about TDD and similar techniques, use my common sense, pick some pieces from here and there and use what I think works. But I also do think that it can be a good idea to at least once or twice exactly follow these religious believers and see how it works. Then make my own decisions based on that. -- /Jacob Carlborg |
June 21, 2013 Re: OT: CS education gone wrong (Was: Re: TDD is BS?) | ||||
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Posted in reply to Jacob Carlborg | On 6/21/13, Jacob Carlborg <doob@me.com> wrote:
> I agree. Most interviews I have been on lately is due to my github project.
Oh? That's cool. Which [rpkect?
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June 21, 2013 Re: OT: CS education gone wrong (Was: Re: TDD is BS?) | ||||
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On 6/21/13, Andrej Mitrovic <andrej.mitrovich@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 6/21/13, Jacob Carlborg <doob@me.com> wrote:
>> I agree. Most interviews I have been on lately is due to my github project.
>
> Oh? That's cool. Which [rpkect?
>
Looks like I rot13'ed by accident, I meant which project?
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June 21, 2013 Re: OT: CS education gone wrong (Was: Re: TDD is BS?) | ||||
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Posted in reply to Andrej Mitrovic | On Friday, 21 June 2013 at 06:34:09 UTC, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:
> On 6/21/13, H. S. Teoh <hsteoh@quickfur.ath.cx> wrote:
>> In spite of it all, though, we still sometimes end up hiring people who,
>> 6 months down the road, write code that makes you scratch your head
>> going "huh?! that genius coder we hired wrote *this* junk?!".
>
> Seems like nowadays it's not too far-fetched to ask for a
> github/bitbucket/etc username and see the work they've done, the way
> they write code, contribute, etc. It should give a better "feel" than
> any interview.
Except not everyone has the authorization to place their work code in such public places nor the availability or desire to code after work, just to please job interviewers.
--
Paulo
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June 21, 2013 Re: OT: CS education gone wrong (Was: Re: TDD is BS?) | ||||
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Posted in reply to H. S. Teoh | On Friday, 21 June 2013 at 05:59:00 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote:
> In spite of it all, though, we still sometimes end up hiring people who,
> 6 months down the road, write code that makes you scratch your head
> going "huh?! that genius coder we hired wrote *this* junk?!". But maybe
> some hiring managers are less discerning than others. *shrug*
>
In my (admittedly U.S.-centric) experience: if you're getting people who know how to use external libraries, what a debugger is, more than one programming language (or, indeed, any language other than Java), and any form of source control at all, I'm afraid you're hitting among the cream of the crop as far as CS baccalaureates go. And if you want them to admin a box at the same time, good luck with that. You're often better off with a passionate dropout if you're interested in hiring someone to write code.
My hypothesis is this happens because the curricula are heavily skewed toward theoretical aspects of computer science. (In my view, the exemplar for this was OSU before they axed the mandatory RESOLVE/C++ series.)
Cheers,
Wyatt
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June 21, 2013 Re: OT: CS education gone wrong (Was: Re: TDD is BS?) | ||||
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Posted in reply to Andrej Mitrovic | On 2013-06-21 12:20, Andrej Mitrovic wrote: > Oh? That's cool. Which [rpkect? I don't know if it was a particular project but at least one company was interested in several projects, DStep (convert C/Objective-C headers to D modules), Jazz (D frontend) and Orbit (D package manager). https://github.com/jacob-carlborg/dstep https://github.com/jacob-carlborg/jazz https://github.com/jacob-carlborg/orbit -- /Jacob Carlborg |
June 21, 2013 Re: TDD is BS? | ||||
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Posted in reply to Szymon Gatner | On Wednesday, 19 June 2013 at 11:01:05 UTC, Szymon Gatner wrote:
> This is not strictly D related but I am very curious about D's community opinion on the points made by non other than Jim Coplien here:
>
> http://www.tele-task.de/archive/video/flash/16130/
>
> D is the only language (that I am aware of) that has first class unit testing support. What do you think? Do we really just "mentally masturbate"?
>
I finally had time to see the conf. I have to say that I started with a bad opinion of it :D But it is simply poorly marketed, the content is actually very interesting.
And I'd say it is mostly about OOP rather than TDD. And I agree with most of it, while learning some other stuff.
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June 21, 2013 Re: TDD is BS? | ||||
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Posted in reply to Jacob Carlborg | On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 11:31:22AM +0200, Jacob Carlborg wrote: > On 2013-06-21 05:32, Nick Sabalausky wrote: > > >[Snip] > > > >Bottom line is, schools are absolute garbage, and academic achievement is *at best* completely meaningless. > > I couldn't agree more with your post. The problem though is that most hiring process uses the HR department, as you mentioned in an other post, and they only look at the degree. I only took a degree to have something "to show" for these HR departments, most of what I learned I learned on my own time. [...] +1, me too! I can say that 85-90% of what I do at work today, I learned from my personal coding projects, not from the CS courses I took in university. (That's why I like to joke about CS grads knowing more about uncomputable problems than computable ones...) Having said that, though, I *did* find that going through university helped train my mind to think logically and rigorously, even if most of the course content was not actually useful in real-life. T -- Valentine's Day: an occasion for florists to reach into the wallets of nominal lovers in dire need of being reminded to profess their hypothetical love for their long-forgotten. |
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