On Friday, 29 June 2018 at 11:54:48 UTC, Joakim wrote:
> On Friday, 29 June 2018 at 11:32:13 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
>> On Friday, June 29, 2018 10:50:52 Joakim via Digitalmars-d wrote:
>>> I coincidentally just read this blog post, that summarizes a lot of my thoughts against conferences and meetups:
>>>
>>> https://marco.org/2018/01/17/end-of-conference-era
>>>
>>> Maybe a good first step would be a mostly online DConf geared towards Asian timezones? I could help out with arranging those online talks.
>>
>> That article seems to pre-suppose that the only benefit from conferences is the talks. A _lot_ of good comes from having a bunch of the key developers in the same place for a few days where they can talk in person.
>
> It "pre-supposes" nothing, points like yours are specifically addressed:
>
> "But all of that media can’t really replace the socializing, networking, and simply fun that happened as part of (or sometimes despite) the conference formula."
>
>> Some communities (e.g. the BSD community) even have developer meetings connected to conferences where they specifically put a bunch of developers in a room together to discuss stuff. The talks are valuable, but in some ways, those face-to-face interactions are worth far more than the talks. So, while there's certainly value in finding ways to get more talks online, I think that it would be a huge mistake to try and push for online stuff to replace physical conferences where developers actually interact with each other in person.
>
> I don't, I think it would be a huge improvement. There are very few benefits to getting people together in person in our hyperconnected age, and while "key developers in the same place" may be one of those, that excludes almost everybody else at DConf.
>
> Honestly, getting everybody together in a room and having them stare straight ahead at a speaker is a blindingly stupid waste of time these days. The only advantage of everybody being together in a room is the heightened communication bandwidth, and then you all sit next to each other staring straight ahead silently. The conference format made sense when pretty much everybody attending didn't have high-speed internet and connected video displays decades ago, but they make no sense now, as that blog post notes.

Actually the network speed in China is not satisfied in some extent, and that of Korea and Japan are much better.

On 06/29/2018 02:20 AM, Joakim wrote:
> However, Ali notes significant interest in his D book in China and Russia (also see updated stats later in that thread):
> 
> https://forum.dlang.org/post/oarr8l$19rh$1@digitalmars.com

Random stats of the day:

Location            Pages   Hits    Bandwidth
---------------------------------------------
United States       34,237  42,608    1.34 GB
China               28,616  29,040  543.10 MB
Turkey              16,121  46,814  929.62 MB
Russian Federation  10,205  12,616  525.24 MB
Netherlands          8,559   8,747  148.16 MB
Norway               7,247   7,324   79.20 MB
Thailand             7,045   7,052   78.29 MB
Germany              6,172   7,734  495.69 MB
Brazil               5,272   5,604  128.59 MB
[...]

Ali

On Friday, 29 June 2018 at 17:04:46 UTC, 鲜卑拓跋枫 wrote:
> On Friday, 29 June 2018 at 11:54:48 UTC, Joakim wrote:
>> On Friday, 29 June 2018 at 11:32:13 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
>>> On Friday, June 29, 2018 10:50:52 Joakim via Digitalmars-d wrote:
>>>> I coincidentally just read this blog post, that summarizes a lot of my thoughts against conferences and meetups:
>>>>
>>>> https://marco.org/2018/01/17/end-of-conference-era
>>>>
>>>> Maybe a good first step would be a mostly online DConf geared towards Asian timezones? I could help out with arranging those online talks.
>>>
>>> That article seems to pre-suppose that the only benefit from conferences is the talks. A _lot_ of good comes from having a bunch of the key developers in the same place for a few days where they can talk in person.
>>
>> It "pre-supposes" nothing, points like yours are specifically addressed:
>>
>> "But all of that media can’t really replace the socializing, networking, and simply fun that happened as part of (or sometimes despite) the conference formula."
>>
>>> Some communities (e.g. the BSD community) even have developer meetings connected to conferences where they specifically put a bunch of developers in a room together to discuss stuff. The talks are valuable, but in some ways, those face-to-face interactions are worth far more than the talks. So, while there's certainly value in finding ways to get more talks online, I think that it would be a huge mistake to try and push for online stuff to replace physical conferences where developers actually interact with each other in person.
>>
>> I don't, I think it would be a huge improvement. There are very few benefits to getting people together in person in our hyperconnected age, and while "key developers in the same place" may be one of those, that excludes almost everybody else at DConf.
>>
>> Honestly, getting everybody together in a room and having them stare straight ahead at a speaker is a blindingly stupid waste of time these days. The only advantage of everybody being together in a room is the heightened communication bandwidth, and then you all sit next to each other staring straight ahead silently. The conference format made sense when pretty much everybody attending didn't have high-speed internet and connected video displays decades ago, but they make no sense now, as that blog post notes.
>
> Actually the network speed in China is not satisfied in some extent, and that of Korea and Japan are much better.

What about Hong Kong?

On Friday, June 29, 2018 11:54:48 Joakim via Digitalmars-d wrote:
> On Friday, 29 June 2018 at 11:32:13 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
> > On Friday, June 29, 2018 10:50:52 Joakim via Digitalmars-d
> >
> > wrote:
> >> I coincidentally just read this blog post, that summarizes a lot of my thoughts against conferences and meetups:
> >>
> >> https://marco.org/2018/01/17/end-of-conference-era
> >>
> >> Maybe a good first step would be a mostly online DConf geared towards Asian timezones? I could help out with arranging those online talks.
> >
> > That article seems to pre-suppose that the only benefit from conferences is the talks. A _lot_ of good comes from having a bunch of the key developers in the same place for a few days where they can talk in person.
>
> It "pre-supposes" nothing, points like yours are specifically addressed:
>
> "But all of that media can’t really replace the socializing, networking, and simply fun that happened as part of (or sometimes despite) the conference formula."

Well, then I clearly read over it too quickly, but regardless, I think that you're going to have a hard time convincing the folks that attend dconf that meeting in person is not highly valuable, and for those who aren't there in person and only care about the talks, the talks are livestreamed and then made available separated out later. I don't see how trying to kill off the in-person aspect of things makes it any worse for those online, and I can say from experience that meeting in person can be a game changer. It gives you a very different perspective on someone if you've actually talked with them in person, and there's lots of communication that works far better that way. dconf is valuable for both the talks and the communication that happens before, between, and after them. And regardless of its location, I would hate to see it stop happening or stop being an actual, physical conference. Much as I prefer it when it's closer to where I live so that the travel time and expenses are lower, I've gone even when it's been halfway around the world, and I wasn't speaking (and thus wasn't reimbursed), and I will continue to do so. And I hate flying.

I honestly don't see how convincing folks to do just online videos instead of meeting in purpose and recording the talks is any kind of improvement. At best, it could be argued that if folks could give their talks from home that the travel expenses would be avoided, but that's not even vaguely worth the loss of being able to have most of the core devs and many D enthusiasts meet and talk in the same place for a few days - even if several hours of that time is spent listening to talks that could arguably have been done from home.

If you don't want to show up in person, then just watch the livestream and don't show up. The rest of us actually want to show up in person. I feel sorry for those who want to come but can't afford to (be it due to the time required or the money required), but they wouldn't be any better off if everyone were livestreaming their talks from home instead of a central location that they couldn't afford to go to. Many of us pay to go to dconf and consider the money very well spent.

- Jonathan M Davis

On 6/29/2018 2:34 AM, Mike Franklin wrote:
> I doubt there'd be any problem have DConf anywhere in the world as long is it is properly funded.  Who in Asia would be willing to sponsor it?


Mike is right on both counts.

On Friday, 29 June 2018 at 19:50:32 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
> On Friday, June 29, 2018 11:54:48 Joakim via Digitalmars-d wrote:
>> On Friday, 29 June 2018 at 11:32:13 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
>> > On Friday, June 29, 2018 10:50:52 Joakim via Digitalmars-d
>> >
>> > wrote:
>> >> I coincidentally just read this blog post, that summarizes a lot of my thoughts against conferences and meetups:
>> >>
>> >> https://marco.org/2018/01/17/end-of-conference-era
>> >>
>> >> Maybe a good first step would be a mostly online DConf geared towards Asian timezones? I could help out with arranging those online talks.
>> >
>> > That article seems to pre-suppose that the only benefit from conferences is the talks. A _lot_ of good comes from having a bunch of the key developers in the same place for a few days where they can talk in person.
>>
>> It "pre-supposes" nothing, points like yours are specifically addressed:
>>
>> "But all of that media can’t really replace the socializing, networking, and simply fun that happened as part of (or sometimes despite) the conference formula."
>
> Well, then I clearly read over it too quickly, but regardless, I think that you're going to have a hard time convincing the folks that attend dconf that meeting in person is not highly valuable, and for those who aren't there in person and only care about the talks, the talks are livestreamed and then made available separated out later. I don't see how trying to kill off the in-person aspect of things makes it any worse for those online, and I can say from experience that meeting in person can be a game changer. It gives you a very different perspective on someone if you've actually talked with them in person, and there's lots of communication that works far better that way. dconf is valuable for both the talks and the communication that happens before, between, and after them. And regardless of its location, I would hate to see it stop happening or stop being an actual, physical conference. Much as I prefer it when it's closer to where I live so that the travel time and expenses are lower, I've gone even when it's been halfway around the world, and I wasn't speaking (and thus wasn't reimbursed), and I will continue to do so. And I hate flying.
>
> I honestly don't see how convincing folks to do just online videos instead of meeting in purpose and recording the talks is any kind of improvement. At best, it could be argued that if folks could give their talks from home that the travel expenses would be avoided, but that's not even vaguely worth the loss of being able to have most of the core devs and many D enthusiasts meet and talk in the same place for a few days - even if several hours of that time is spent listening to talks that could arguably have been done from home.

As I just told Mike, if you can't defend wasting time watching talks together, then do all those things you mention without the talks. And simply stating that the in-person talks are "valuable" is no defense.

> If you don't want to show up in person, then just watch the livestream and don't show up. The rest of us actually want to show up in person.

I have never shown up in person, I suspect I never will.

> I feel sorry for those who want to come but can't afford to (be it due to the time required or the money required), but they wouldn't be any better off if everyone were livestreaming their talks from home instead of a central location that they couldn't afford to go to.

This is not about them, as you say, they can just watch the talks online either way.

> Many of us pay to go to dconf and consider the money very well spent.

Yes, this is about those people, who as that blog post notes, are wasting a ton of money on an outdated ritual that no longer makes sense. If you believe the core team and a few key devs like you need to get together once a year in person and hash things out, then do that as an offline retreat somewhere, just don't sucker in a bunch of other paying DConf attendees to help defray your costs.

The ultimate question here is what is the best use of the money that's being expended every year at DConf? Is that money best spent mostly on hotel/conference rooms and airline tickets for marginal benefit to most or on actually getting shit done? I think it's obvious that the model I've sketched out to Mike above would get a _lot_ more done.

On Saturday, June 30, 2018 01:12:10 Joakim via Digitalmars-d wrote:
> Yes, this is about those people, who as that blog post notes, are wasting a ton of money on an outdated ritual that no longer makes sense. If you believe the core team and a few key devs like you need to get together once a year in person and hash things out, then do that as an offline retreat somewhere, just don't sucker in a bunch of other paying DConf attendees to help defray your costs.
>
> The ultimate question here is what is the best use of the money that's being expended every year at DConf? Is that money best spent mostly on hotel/conference rooms and airline tickets for marginal benefit to most or on actually getting shit done? I think it's obvious that the model I've sketched out to Mike above would get a _lot_ more done.

A lot of people would disagree with you. If you don't want to go, then don't go. If others don't want to go, then they don't have to go. No one is being forced to go. There are clearly plenty of folks interested in going to dconf, and I expect that it will continue to happen so long as there is such interest. If folks aren't interested, then they won't show up, and if attendance is too low, then presumably, dconf won't be held anymore. However, the interest is clearly there even if you aren't interested, and I don't understand why you would be trying to get folks to stop going when they're very much interested in going and see value in doing so. If all you care about is being able to get online content, then just watch the videos online.

- Jonathan M Davis

On Saturday, 30 June 2018 at 01:33:34 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
> On Saturday, June 30, 2018 01:12:10 Joakim via Digitalmars-d wrote:
>> Yes, this is about those people, who as that blog post notes, are wasting a ton of money on an outdated ritual that no longer makes sense. If you believe the core team and a few key devs like you need to get together once a year in person and hash things out, then do that as an offline retreat somewhere, just don't sucker in a bunch of other paying DConf attendees to help defray your costs.
>>
>> The ultimate question here is what is the best use of the money that's being expended every year at DConf? Is that money best spent mostly on hotel/conference rooms and airline tickets for marginal benefit to most or on actually getting shit done? I think it's obvious that the model I've sketched out to Mike above would get a _lot_ more done.
>
> A lot of people would disagree with you. If you don't want to go, then don't go. If others don't want to go, then they don't have to go. No one is being forced to go. There are clearly plenty of folks interested in going to dconf, and I expect that it will continue to happen so long as there is such interest. If folks aren't interested, then they won't show up, and if attendance is too low, then presumably, dconf won't be held anymore. However, the interest is clearly there even if you aren't interested, and I don't understand why you would be trying to get folks to stop going when they're very much interested in going and see value in doing so. If all you care about is being able to get online content, then just watch the videos online.

My point is obvious from the arguments I've made, including the one you just responded to while ignoring the substance of the argument. And not that many people are actually interested in attending DConf as presently run, I counted what, maybe 100-150 people at the one in Munich last month?

If you're going to keep ignoring Marco's and my arguments and simply repeatedly state that it's worth it for those who attend despite all the flaws, then there's no point in discussing it. Clearly the current conference format is like a religious ritual for you then, something that must be blindly done regardless of any considerations of value.

On Saturday, June 30, 2018 01:43:32 Joakim via Digitalmars-d wrote:
> On Saturday, 30 June 2018 at 01:33:34 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
> > On Saturday, June 30, 2018 01:12:10 Joakim via Digitalmars-d
> >
> > wrote:
> >> Yes, this is about those people, who as that blog post notes, are wasting a ton of money on an outdated ritual that no longer makes sense. If you believe the core team and a few key devs like you need to get together once a year in person and hash things out, then do that as an offline retreat somewhere, just don't sucker in a bunch of other paying DConf attendees to help defray your costs.
> >>
> >> The ultimate question here is what is the best use of the money that's being expended every year at DConf? Is that money best spent mostly on hotel/conference rooms and airline tickets for marginal benefit to most or on actually getting shit done? I think it's obvious that the model I've sketched out to Mike above would get a _lot_ more done.
> >
> > A lot of people would disagree with you. If you don't want to go, then don't go. If others don't want to go, then they don't have to go. No one is being forced to go. There are clearly plenty of folks interested in going to dconf, and I expect that it will continue to happen so long as there is such interest. If folks aren't interested, then they won't show up, and if attendance is too low, then presumably, dconf won't be held anymore. However, the interest is clearly there even if you aren't interested, and I don't understand why you would be trying to get folks to stop going when they're very much interested in going and see value in doing so. If all you care about is being able to get online content, then just watch the videos online.
>
> My point is obvious from the arguments I've made, including the one you just responded to while ignoring the substance of the argument. And not that many people are actually interested in attending DConf as presently run, I counted what, maybe 100-150 people at the one in Munich last month?
>
> If you're going to keep ignoring Marco's and my arguments and simply repeatedly state that it's worth it for those who attend despite all the flaws, then there's no point in discussing it. Clearly the current conference format is like a religious ritual for you then, something that must be blindly done regardless of any considerations of value.

Those of us who take the time and spend the money to go to dconf consider it worth the expenditure, or we wouldn't take the time or spend the money to go. It's our money to spend, and we see real value in what we get out of it, or we wouldn't keep going. If you don't agree with us, fine, but I don't see how it makes sense to try and talk us out of doing what we see value in doing. If you want to spend your time and money on something else, then do so.

- Jonathan M Davis

On Saturday, 30 June 2018 at 01:52:15 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
> On Saturday, June 30, 2018 01:43:32 Joakim via Digitalmars-d wrote:
>> On Saturday, 30 June 2018 at 01:33:34 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
>> > On Saturday, June 30, 2018 01:12:10 Joakim via Digitalmars-d
>> >
>> > wrote:
>> >> Yes, this is about those people, who as that blog post notes, are wasting a ton of money on an outdated ritual that no longer makes sense. If you believe the core team and a few key devs like you need to get together once a year in person and hash things out, then do that as an offline retreat somewhere, just don't sucker in a bunch of other paying DConf attendees to help defray your costs.
>> >>
>> >> The ultimate question here is what is the best use of the money that's being expended every year at DConf? Is that money best spent mostly on hotel/conference rooms and airline tickets for marginal benefit to most or on actually getting shit done? I think it's obvious that the model I've sketched out to Mike above would get a _lot_ more done.
>> >
>> > A lot of people would disagree with you. If you don't want to go, then don't go. If others don't want to go, then they don't have to go. No one is being forced to go. There are clearly plenty of folks interested in going to dconf, and I expect that it will continue to happen so long as there is such interest. If folks aren't interested, then they won't show up, and if attendance is too low, then presumably, dconf won't be held anymore. However, the interest is clearly there even if you aren't interested, and I don't understand why you would be trying to get folks to stop going when they're very much interested in going and see value in doing so. If all you care about is being able to get online content, then just watch the videos online.
>>
>> My point is obvious from the arguments I've made, including the one you just responded to while ignoring the substance of the argument. And not that many people are actually interested in attending DConf as presently run, I counted what, maybe 100-150 people at the one in Munich last month?
>>
>> If you're going to keep ignoring Marco's and my arguments and simply repeatedly state that it's worth it for those who attend despite all the flaws, then there's no point in discussing it. Clearly the current conference format is like a religious ritual for you then, something that must be blindly done regardless of any considerations of value.
>
> Those of us who take the time and spend the money to go to dconf consider it worth the expenditure, or we wouldn't take the time or spend the money to go. It's our money to spend, and we see real value in what we get out of it, or we wouldn't keep going. If you don't agree with us, fine, but I don't see how it makes sense to try and talk us out of doing what we see value in doing. If you want to spend your time and money on something else, then do so.

Simple, D is a collective effort. If the core team wants to waste one of its key funding sources in getting a bunch of hobbyists together in a room showing off to each other then going on a European vacation, completely ignoring how the world and tech has changed from back when that could actually be worthwhile, that signals to me and others that D is not a serious effort to build a viable programming language. Such an egregious waste of resources signals that this is just a bunch of boys having fun with their toys, only now out on the town in Europe.

I'm not saying that was the intent all along: I suspect that like most people and institutions, DConf simply blindly aped what was done in the past, which is why conferences still happen. However, I'm now presenting arguments for why that doesn't make sense and why that outdated ritual is dying off, as Marco notes, and if the response is merely, "That's the way things have been done and we'll just keep doing it regardless," well, congrats, you just explained the thinking for why C and C++ will never be displaced by D.