On Friday, 3 November 2017 at 14:29:27 UTC, jmh530 wrote:
> On Friday, 3 November 2017 at 14:12:56 UTC, Joakim wrote:
>> [snip]
>>
>> But that established PC userbase shrinking is not what you should be worried about.  I've talked to multiple middle-class consumers in developing markets- they would be considered poor in the US if you converted their income to dollars- who tell me that they recently got their first smartphone for $150-200 and that it is the first time they ever used the internet, with cheap 3G/4G plans that are only now springing up.  They don't use the web, only mobile chat or social apps.
>>
>> Now, do you think these billions of new users of computing and the internet are more likely to buy a cheap laptop shell or dock for their smartphone when they someday need to do some "lean forward" work, as you call it, or spend much more on a Windows PC?  I know where my bet is.
>>
>
> It's pretty clear from this and some of the other posts that your primary focus is computer users. The work you've done in getting LDC to compile programs for Android is a good example. You want to be able to compile D programs that go on a smart phone because that's where the growth of computer users is coming from. I get that. 100%.

Yes, D should aim for the largest platforms first- that includes Android, iOS, and Windows- because that's where programmers want to use D to create software for the most users.

> I think a source of pushback on the Windows subject is that programmers are a mere subset of all computer users. Maybe the billions might buy a cheap laptop shell or dock, but that doesn't mean they will be programmers. Thus, it's good to be able to compile programs for that platform, but it doesn't mean that work done to improve the experience of programmers on other platforms is a waste of time.

Of course those mobile users will be programmers too, why do you think I've built ldc to be used _on_ Android itself?

http://forum.dlang.org/thread/antajtnvmavswjvcdoyq@forum.dlang.org

Most programmers will one day be coding on mobile devices, though I admit I'm in a small, early-adopting minority now:

http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/six-weeks-working-android/

For the majority of devs still using PCs to write code, my point was better to invest in improving the experience with D for those targeting mobile, rather than more marginal effort to make VisualD and others targeting Windows even better, because of the different sizes and trajectories of those OS platforms.

On Friday, 3 November 2017 at 17:25:26 UTC, Joakim wrote:
>
> Most programmers will one day be coding on mobile devices, though I admit I'm in a small, early-adopting minority now:
>
> http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/six-weeks-working-android/
>

A blog post is not evidence that the majority of programmers will be coding on mobile devices.

On Friday, 3 November 2017 at 14:29:27 UTC, jmh530 wrote:
> You want to be able to compile D programs that go on a smart phone because that's where the growth of computer users is coming from.

That's not all that obvious. I think a lot of the adults who got computers in the mid 90s did so to be able to access WWW, and that this segment will be ok with tablets or just phones. And mostly web-apps in addition to banking/tickets and social apps. I think the majority of this not-so-sophisticated segment is quite limited in where they go after the novelty of mobile apps is weaning.

In addition you have the kids/teens/young adults market that used to be C64, Nintendo, Sega, Playstation etc. I think that market segment is somewhat stable in what they go for, but will be swayed by the latest fashion/marketing. So, it is increasing because third world countries get access, but same behaviour in some ways. And as such could move to a completely new platform quite quickly because kids have a very low threshold for moving to new tech.

> Thus, it's good to be able to compile programs for that platform, but it doesn't mean that work done to improve the experience of programmers on other platforms is a waste of time.

Well, it is possible that web development will move to less demanding platforms, but is also quite obvious that to get to next generation of programming languages with heavy duty static analysis and software synthesis you need a magnitude more power than current desktop CPUs offer.

Not that I can predict the future, but better tooling means smarter tools, smarter tools require another level of power. And judging from what is happening in language research I'd say that is the direction we'll see in the next few decades. But who knows, maybe the next gen javascript will own the market for decades to come. Hard to tell.

What I do see is that neither Apple or Intel have done a lot of innovation in the past decade. Maybe they don't have to, maybe their margins are too large to care.

That opens the door for new players.

On Friday, 3 November 2017 at 18:08:54 UTC, 12345swordy wrote:
> On Friday, 3 November 2017 at 17:25:26 UTC, Joakim wrote:
>>
>> Most programmers will one day be coding on mobile devices, though I admit I'm in a small, early-adopting minority now:
>>
>> http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/six-weeks-working-android/
>>
>
> A blog post is not evidence that the majority of programmers will be coding on mobile devices.

Yes, but it is evidence of what I said, that "I'm in a small, early-adopting minority now."  I don't know how you expect evidence for something that _will_ happen, it's a prediction I'm making, though based on current, rising trends like all those in this feed:

https://mobile.twitter.com/termux

On Friday, 3 November 2017 at 18:26:54 UTC, Joakim wrote:
> On Friday, 3 November 2017 at 18:08:54 UTC, 12345swordy wrote:
>> On Friday, 3 November 2017 at 17:25:26 UTC, Joakim wrote:
>>>
>>> Most programmers will one day be coding on mobile devices, though I admit I'm in a small, early-adopting minority now:
>>>
>>> http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/six-weeks-working-android/
>>>
>>
>> A blog post is not evidence that the majority of programmers will be coding on mobile devices.
>
> Yes, but it is evidence of what I said, that "I'm in a small, early-adopting minority now."  I don't know how you expect evidence for something that _will_ happen, it's a prediction I'm making, though based on current, rising trends like all those in this feed:
>
> https://mobile.twitter.com/termux

I don't really care if the device crunching the numbers is a smartphone or a mainframe as long as it is fast enough and:

1) I can do my work with a regular size keyboard and large monitor.
2) I can use whatever applications I want be it a CLI or some GUI app.
3) I can install/execute VMs on my device of choice without running
out of memory.
4) My data isn't monitored, controlled, owned, or data-mined by some large corporation.
5) I can easily move my data, etc. to another device if I decide to.
6) I can use it to play any DVD's that I own (don't have a TV).
7) I can't easily lose my computing device :o)

How far off do you think mobile devices are off providing this type of experience, or are they already there in your mind?  What about #7.

On Friday, 3 November 2017 at 19:23:51 UTC, Craig Dillabaugh wrote:
> On Friday, 3 November 2017 at 18:26:54 UTC, Joakim wrote:
>> On Friday, 3 November 2017 at 18:08:54 UTC, 12345swordy wrote:
>>> On Friday, 3 November 2017 at 17:25:26 UTC, Joakim wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Most programmers will one day be coding on mobile devices, though I admit I'm in a small, early-adopting minority now:
>>>>
>>>> http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/six-weeks-working-android/
>>>>
>>>
>>> A blog post is not evidence that the majority of programmers will be coding on mobile devices.
>>
>> Yes, but it is evidence of what I said, that "I'm in a small, early-adopting minority now."  I don't know how you expect evidence for something that _will_ happen, it's a prediction I'm making, though based on current, rising trends like all those in this feed:
>>
>> https://mobile.twitter.com/termux
>
> I don't really care if the device crunching the numbers is a smartphone or a mainframe as long as it is fast enough and:
>
> 1) I can do my work with a regular size keyboard and large monitor.

Check, most mobile devices these days support some form of interfacing with monitors and keyboards.

> 2) I can use whatever applications I want be it a CLI or some GUI app.

Depends on precisely what those apps are, ie Office Mobile and Photoshop Express are available on Android, but I'm sure some obscure Win32 CAD app isn't.

> 3) I can install/execute VMs on my device of choice without running
> out of memory.

No, only early Qemu support for now, VMs have not really come to mobile yet.

> 4) My data isn't monitored, controlled, owned, or data-mined by some large corporation.

Check, especially if you know what you're doing.

> 5) I can easily move my data, etc. to another device if I decide to.

Check, mobile devices usually support such transfer better than PCs.

> 6) I can use it to play any DVD's that I own (don't have a TV).

Hmm, that is a niche use case these days, guessing no.  I don't think I've handled a DVD in more than a decade, like most people, so I'm not sure this matters.  However, I just watched a HD movie on my tablet last night, and I find it to be a more engaging experience than any TV.  Something about having the screen right in front of you, it's more immersive, particularly if your tablet has decent speakers (though I always care about video more than audio, so don't need the big sound system that people usually hook up to their TVs).  I haven't owned a TV for more than a decade, though people I've lived with have usually had one, that I almost never watched.

> 7) I can't easily lose my computing device :o)

Obviously any "mobile" device, whether a smartphone or laptop is more easily lost than a desktop you keep at home. I've never lost one, but I don't move around that much.  I'll say Check, since you can enable device trackers and proximity warnings to help you with this.

> How far off do you think mobile devices are off providing this type of experience, or are they already there in your mind?  What about #7.

They're getting there, but not as general-purpose as a PC yet.

On Friday, 3 November 2017 at 20:05:52 UTC, Joakim wrote:
>
>> 5) I can easily move my data, etc. to another device if I decide to.
>
> Check, mobile devices usually support such transfer better than PCs.
>

"mobile devices" meaning Android devices. I can't stick a USB flash drive in a iPad.

On Friday, 3 November 2017 at 20:36:57 UTC, jmh530 wrote:
> On Friday, 3 November 2017 at 20:05:52 UTC, Joakim wrote:
>>
>>> 5) I can easily move my data, etc. to another device if I decide to.
>>
>> Check, mobile devices usually support such transfer better than PCs.
>>
>
> "mobile devices" meaning Android devices. I can't stick a USB flash drive in a iPad.

Sure you can, with the right adapter:

https://www.lifewire.com/how-to-connect-usb-devices-to-ipad-1999862

I routinely transfer HD video from my Android devices to a couple TB external slim HDs.

On Friday, 3 November 2017 at 21:33:19 UTC, Joakim wrote:
>
> Sure you can, with the right adapter:
>
> https://www.lifewire.com/how-to-connect-usb-devices-to-ipad-1999862
>
> I routinely transfer HD video from my Android devices to a couple TB external slim HDs.

I'm not disputing Android. Just saying that copying a photo or powerpoint presentation or something from an iPhone/iPad directly to a USB drive, not the easiest thing in the world. I haven't tried it, but apparently there are wifi USB drives that'll do it (maybe not the photo, because Apple's a litle funky about them).

On Friday, 3 November 2017 at 18:26:54 UTC, Joakim wrote:
> On Friday, 3 November 2017 at 18:08:54 UTC, 12345swordy wrote:
>> On Friday, 3 November 2017 at 17:25:26 UTC, Joakim wrote:
>>>
>>> Most programmers will one day be coding on mobile devices, though I admit I'm in a small, early-adopting minority now:
>>>
>>> http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/six-weeks-working-android/
>>>
>>
>> A blog post is not evidence that the majority of programmers will be coding on mobile devices.
>
> Yes, but it is evidence of what I said, that "I'm in a small, early-adopting minority now."  I don't know how you expect evidence for something that _will_ happen, it's a prediction I'm making, though based on current, rising trends like all those in this feed:
>
> https://mobile.twitter.com/termux

Can we please get back on topic please?

Whether or not windows is 'dying' is irrelevant, since it is not going to die out as a development platform for at least the next 5 years.

I, like many other windows users, want to be able to compile 64bit binaries in windows, without having to download and install the bloated and time consuming to download and install Visual Studio.

I do most of my programming in Sublime Text, and frequently re-install windows. This may not be the case for many windows users of D, but clearly many windows users of D would like to be able to compile x64 out of the box.