So i'm a college student in and what bothers me is that there seem to kind of assume programming languages don't evolve or don't get replaced by better ones.
Right now if you go to college you'll most likely get tought c++, c# or java for any comp sci degree. While these languages are industrial standards, they all have their drawbacks. And one drawback that looks important for teaching is flexibility in expressiveness.

From my experience college students seem to have problems translating their often declarative thought process into actual semi compile-able code that runs in a given language.
Since D seems to be a language that supports a lot of programming paradigms very well, wouldn't it be beneficial to learn people declarative programming using D for a little and from there expose them to other programming styles in thesame language to lower the barrier of entry?

I think D could play a bigger role in education since its such a "clean" language that is flexible but doesn't have any real gotcha "features". Its also a language that could potentially be used over someones entire college career as the primary language. If this would be achieved there would be a higher income flow into the industry of young D programmers which will pollute other programmers with the D mind and featureset.

On 04/05/2018 11:35 PM, Sjoerd Nijboer wrote:
> So i'm a college student in and what bothers me is that there seem to kind of assume programming languages don't evolve or don't get replaced by better ones.
> Right now if you go to college you'll most likely get tought c++, c# or java for any comp sci degree. While these languages are industrial standards, they all have their drawbacks. And one drawback that looks important for teaching is flexibility in expressiveness.
> 
>  From my experience college students seem to have problems translating their often declarative thought process into actual semi compile-able code that runs in a given language.
> Since D seems to be a language that supports a lot of programming paradigms very well, wouldn't it be beneficial to learn people declarative programming using D for a little and from there expose them to other programming styles in thesame language to lower the barrier of entry?

I made this very argument during my own degree.

First we need adoption, then maybe we can start designing a course to help get them going.

On Friday, 4 May 2018 at 11:35:22 UTC, Sjoerd Nijboer wrote:
> So i'm a college student in and what bothers me is that there seem to kind of assume programming languages don't evolve or don't get replaced by better ones.
> Right now if you go to college you'll most likely get tought c++, c# or java for any comp sci degree. While these languages are industrial standards, they all have their drawbacks. And one drawback that looks important for teaching is flexibility in expressiveness.
>
> From my experience college students seem to have problems translating their often declarative thought process into actual semi compile-able code that runs in a given language.
> Since D seems to be a language that supports a lot of programming paradigms very well, wouldn't it be beneficial to learn people declarative programming using D for a little and from there expose them to other programming styles in thesame language to lower the barrier of entry?
>
> I think D could play a bigger role in education since its such a "clean" language that is flexible but doesn't have any real gotcha "features". Its also a language that could potentially be used over someones entire college career as the primary language. If this would be achieved there would be a higher income flow into the industry of young D programmers which will pollute other programmers with the D mind and featureset.

The biggest issue is that there isn't much industrial work done in D and that's why it's not taught.

When you're taught to program in specific languages, it's because those languages are where the job market is at.

I completely agree with your post however, but I don't see D ever taking off as an educational programming language in the majority of schools, because it doesn't have a job market to support it.

Say if you apply for a Java job and it says you have 10 years of experience programming in D and 3 years of experience programming Java, then another applicant has 7 years of experience programming in Java, but 0 experience with programming in D.

To the one hiring the person with 7 years of experience seem like a better choice, just because they generally have no idea what D is and what it offers. They don't know that if you program in D you can usually program very well, if not better than most general Java developers __when__ using Java. All they know is that they use Java and they're looking for the one with most experience in that field.

Until D becomes an industrial requirement, then it will not be taught.

That's why D is a hobby language.

On Friday, 4 May 2018 at 11:37:58 UTC, rikki cattermole wrote:
> First we need adoption, then maybe we can start designing a course to help get them going.

Even with adoption, I think the exposure of D and its capabilities to teachers is too small for them to notice unless it is exposed to them as a new learning strategy for their students. After all, teaching is a difficult and time consuming skill and in my personal experience consumes almost all of the time a teacher has. Leaving very little time over for a teacher to explore new technologies such as D and design new courses around them. No teacher I know knows of the existence of D. And when I tell them they assume it is not important to learning computer science.

Therefore I was thinking something more along the lines of a set of free open source courses which use D to learn certain aspects programming and programming related subjects. That would most likely not draw in a lot of new programmers who start programming on their own. They tend to stick to the popular languages. Instead it would offer teachers who are looking for new new teaching material some material that is closely coupled to other material with a small set of technologies. Thus not forcing students to learn a new language every other course. I hope that that would invite teachers to use D as a language for learning.

On Friday, 4 May 2018 at 11:52:36 UTC, bauss wrote:
> To the one hiring the person with 7 years of experience seem like a better choice, just because they generally have no idea what D is and what it offers. They don't know that if you program in D you can usually program very well, if not better than most general Java developers __when__ using Java. All they know is that they use Java and they're looking for the one with most experience in that field.
>
> Until D becomes an industrial requirement, then it will not be taught.
>
> That's why D is a hobby language.

Unfortunately true.
It just seems like a missed opportunity.

On Friday, 4 May 2018 at 12:00:43 UTC, Sjoerd Nijboer wrote:
> Instead it would offer teachers who are looking for new new teaching material some material that is closely coupled to other material with a small set of technologies. Thus not forcing students to learn a new language every other course. I hope that that would invite teachers to use D as a language for learning.

This is key. I don't know how much adoption there would be, but free, professional-quality teaching materials would make it much easier to adopt.

One way that I could see D getting its foot in the door is an intro course using Java or Python but where the instructor wants to devote a couple of lectures to low-level programming using pointers. D would be perfect for that due to the convenient syntax. Other topics like metaprogramming or memory management would also be reasons to use D.

I don't think the lack of industry usage is anywhere close to the problem posed by lack of teaching materials and instructor knowledge. After all, Scheme was widely used for decades, and in some places is still is.

On 05/05/2018 3:14 AM, bachmeier wrote:
> On Friday, 4 May 2018 at 12:00:43 UTC, Sjoerd Nijboer wrote:
>> Instead it would offer teachers who are looking for new new teaching material some material that is closely coupled to other material with a small set of technologies. Thus not forcing students to learn a new language every other course. I hope that that would invite teachers to use D as a language for learning.
> 
> This is key. I don't know how much adoption there would be, but free, professional-quality teaching materials would make it much easier to adopt.
> 
> One way that I could see D getting its foot in the door is an intro course using Java or Python but where the instructor wants to devote a couple of lectures to low-level programming using pointers. D would be perfect for that due to the convenient syntax. Other topics like metaprogramming or memory management would also be reasons to use D.
> 
> I don't think the lack of industry usage is anywhere close to the problem posed by lack of teaching materials and instructor knowledge. After all, Scheme was widely used for decades, and in some places is still is.

Teaching materials is easy to create.
My response is the response I got from my institution.
It is industry usage which is the problem.

Nobody wants to take the risk without being able to point and say "they" are using it for some serious work.

On Friday, 4 May 2018 at 15:22:17 UTC, rikki cattermole wrote:
> Teaching materials is easy to create.

They are, but professional quality teaching materials are not easy to create. Bad teaching materials are a net negative. The things I see presented in this forum, for instance, indicate that not many around here would not be able to teach a college class.

> My response is the response I got from my institution.
> It is industry usage which is the problem.

That depends on the institution and the goals of the class.

On Friday, 4 May 2018 at 11:35:22 UTC, Sjoerd Nijboer wrote:
>
> I think D could play a bigger role in education since its such a "clean" language that is flexible but doesn't have any real gotcha "features".

Umm, that is completely untrue, as it is for pretty much any programming language.

> Its also a language that could potentially be used over someones entire college career as the primary language. If this would be achieved there would be a higher income flow into the industry of young D programmers which will pollute other programmers with the D mind and featureset.

No!!!!!!!

Students should learn C first, Java second. Not one or the other, both!

Then, perhaps, they will begin to understand the basics of computer programming - from both extremes.

D could be a postgrad interest perhaps.

And what's earning an income got to do with anything? It's a stupid concept that humans have imposed on themselves, and it's the primary cause of all things that are wrong with society. The sooner we move to universal incomes, the better grauate programmers we'll get, cause they'll be studying it because it actually interests them, as opposed to being motived by its' 'earning' capacity.

I believe D has had the biggest impact on my programming skills, not so much CS.

D was great because I could try to do the Java assignment in D too, and the same for my C class. Not so much c++.

As you say you can cover different levels with D.

On 5/4/2018 4:35 AM, Sjoerd Nijboer wrote:
> Since D seems to be a language that supports a lot of programming
> paradigms very well, wouldn't it be beneficial to learn people
> declarative programming using D for a little and from there expose them
> to other programming styles in thesame language to lower the barrier of
> entry?

I agree that D being a multi-paradigm language makes it ideal as a vehicle for teaching various paradigms. New paradigms can be taught without the diversion of having to start over learning a new language.