On 09/09/13 09:58, Russel Winder wrote:
> Debian Unstable has Monodevelop 4.0.5, which means it should be in
> Ubuntu 14.04 by default.

I'm reasonably sure it'll be in Ubuntu 13.10 by default too.  I'll probably try it out then.

> This is an important issue for take up. If something isn't in the main
> repository of the distribution and requires lots of other things also
> not in the main distribution then it may get take up from "bleeding
> edge" folk but it will not get mainstream take up. The Ubuntu PPA is
> useful for the Ubuntu distributions but of no use to Debian, Mint,
> Fedora, RHEL, Arch, OS X. (Windows is just beyond the pale ;-)
>
> Getting things into the main Debian, Fedora and Arch repositories seems
> like the best way of maximizing take up in the Linux community. Getting
> things into MacPorts and HomeBrew (the former for me), maximizes take up
> in the OS X community, even if DMG files are provided.

I'd add Ubuntu also to that list, simply because of the number of users -- it's helpful to ensure that every 6 months, such a widely-used distro has the latest D tools.

On 09/09/13 09:31, Ramon wrote:
> (Note to myself: In order to get grown-up I should learn to insult those whose
> linguistic habits differ from mine)

No, but it may help to learn to distinguish between someone saying "You're making yourself look like an immature brat," and someone saying you _are_ one.

On Mon, 2013-09-09 at 01:43 -0700, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: […]
> I see no problem with making it a repo under the D-programming-language org.

As long as 1 of the 21 members of the organization will take on the responsibility for it then fine, go with it. Then we can delete the Emacs-D-Mode-Maintainers group.

We'll need to update the MELPA entry so the pulls come from the new repository.

We'll also have to amend Launchpad stuff as well.

-- 
Russel. ============================================================================= Dr Russel Winder      t: +44 20 7585 2200   voip: sip:russel.winder@ekiga.net 41 Buckmaster Road    m: +44 7770 465 077   xmpp: russel@winder.org.uk London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk  skype: russel_winder

On Sat, 07 Sep 2013 23:35:47 +0100, Paulo Pinto <pjmlp@progtools.org> wrote:

> Am 07.09.2013 23:57, schrieb Ramon:> On Saturday, 7 September 2013 at 20:02:37 UTC, Paulo Pinto wrote:
>  >> Am 07.09.2013 21:55, schrieb Peter Alexander:
>  >>> On Saturday, 7 September 2013 at 19:39:21 UTC, Russel Winder wrote:
>  >>>> Sadly, Visual Studio is a huge player in the game. Make the
>  >>>> connection :-)
>  >>>
>  >>> Why sadly? It's a fantastic product.
>  >>
>  >> The only thing I don't like is the reliance on Visual Assist and
>  >> ReSharper for refactoring features that other IDEs offer out of the box.
>  >>
>  >> --
>  >> Paulo
>  >
>  > I'm both pro and against it.
>  >
>  > Pro because VisualD seems to be (Pardon me, I don't work on Windoze and
>  > didn't work with it but trust Windoze D users opinion on that) an
>  > excellent solution and supporting nicely what seems to be *the* IDE in
>  > Windoze world.
>  >
>  > Against because we need a solution for *all* major platforms (Lx32,
>  > Lx64, *BSD, apple, w32,w64) and I'm worried that this resolution here
>  > might lead to a "So, we *do* have an IDE. Case closed" attitude.
>  >
>  > Kudos anyway to Rainer though for his important work.
>  >
>  > A+ -R
>
> Well, if you want a production quality multi-platform IDE the only options are InteliJ and Eclipse, both of which are not that well received by most C and C++ guys. The target audience for D.

Eclipse is dreadful.  I hate it with a passion.

> That is my humble opinion, regarding the type of tooling I expect from
> an IDE.

My solution: Do all development on windows, commit, update on build machine, rinse and repeat ...  that said, I haven't had to do fully cross platform work for at least 7 years.

R

-- 
Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

On Monday, 9 September 2013 at 09:13:16 UTC, Joseph Rushton Wakeling wrote:
> On 09/09/13 09:31, Ramon wrote:
>> (Note to myself: In order to get grown-up I should learn to insult those whose
>> linguistic habits differ from mine)
>
> No, but it may help to learn to distinguish between someone saying "You're making yourself look like an immature brat," and someone saying you _are_ one.

Well, to me someone who talks in a negative way about another user (or "smartly" works out subtle differences in such remarks) rather than about D related issues looks like an idiot.

Isn't it beautiful to experience variety of perception?

I sincerely hope it's not too immature brat looking to suggest that we focus on D related issues again.

Thank you so much -R

On 09/09/13 10:29, Russel Winder wrote:
> It also appears that Microsoft are beginning to think the whole CLR
> thing is on it's last legs.
>
> The whole "all non-Windows users have to hate C#" thing has some basis
> in fact but also had a lot of FUD associated with it.  The "Mono hatred"
> stemmed from that. So will Microsoft go after Mono with patent suits if
> they are not themselves using C# and CLR? They possibly might as an
> income stream, but it is unlikely to be profitable and so may be not.

I think the Mono hatred/fear stemmed from a particular time in Linux history which involved a combination of Novell's role as a major driver of Mono in GNOME, Microsoft's very aggressive patent posturing (although no actual lawsuits), and the close relationship between Novell and Microsoft that culminated in their patent agreement.

I don't think Microsoft would ever bother suing over Mono patents just for money -- the concern was always that Novell's pushing of Mono was a Trojan Horse that would enable Microsoft to take down the wider Linux community and Novell to clean up on the business Linux side.

> Without solid support from Microsoft the C#F#/CLR culture is unlikely to
> remain strong, despite the serious success F# has had in making people
> interested in CLR. And C# is not a bad language, in many ways much
> better than Java. But Java has staying power in ways C#/F# do not.

First-mover advantage, cross-platform for longer, less patent fear ...

> I gave Mono-D a whirl, but as I don't do any C# or F#, it has brought in
> a huge amount of dependencies. My problem is I do not understand how the
> "Solution" system is the same or different to everyone else's "Project"
> system. I guess I do not have much enthusiasm to find out as I can just
> use Emacs.

Yes, the number of dependencies is very, very annoying if you don't want to work with C#/F#.

> GNOME vs. Qt may be religious to certain parties, but most people choose
> either GNOME or KDE for the desktop and then load the other widget set
> as well. I use GNOME but I have a many Qt-based things on here and
> indeed develop PySide and PyQt5 based systems since GNOME is a
> non-starter on Windows and OS X. Pragmatism is the order of the day here
> not religious fervour.

Yes, GNOME vs. KDE is the issue, not GTK vs Qt.  Installing a specifically GNOME or KDE app will pull in a ton of dependencies from the other desktop, installing a purely Qt- or GTK-based app is much less heavy (it's almost unavoidable I'd say to have both Qt- and GTK-based code on your system).

I found this out recently when trying to install kcachegrind, which wanted to pull in a ton of stuff from the KDE desktop that really didn't seem necessary. It does apparently include a "qcachegrind" package that's purely Qt-based, but it's not packaged separately for Debian or Ubuntu :-(

> I think that now that Qt has escaped from
> Microsoft^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^HNokia, it will return to being one of the two
> primary system for cross-platform GUI systems, wxWidgets being the
> other. Thus I think QtD (fot Qt4 and Qt5) should be seen as an essential
> component of the D milieu.  wxD should also get some presence. It is
> great we have GtkD, but I cannot see it ever having any cross-platform
> traction.

I think that move is already happening and has been for some time -- in fact I think the resurgence of Qt has been happening ever since it was LGPL'd.  My impression is that GTK/GNOME won out historically because the Qt GPL/commercial dual licence meant that there were licensing compatibility issues even for free software, and that there was a single commercial gatekeeper for proprietary software.  That was an undesirable situation to have for the core graphical toolkit of an operating system, so GTK was preferred.

I completely agree that QtD should be a priority project -- I think Qt's importance is only going to grow.

Perhaps this is a nice point to re-iterate my earlier plea for consideration of Qt Creator as a potential cross-platform D IDE? :-)

On 09/09/13 09:51, Russel Winder wrote:
> The Emacs mode stuff for D really needs to be in its own Git repository
> I believe.  MELPA automatically pulls the current repository to create
> the Emacs packages for people to install via the Emacs packaging system.

If it's Emacs stuff, shouldn't it be versioned in bzr? :-)

> Also the more stuff is in the main repository the less and less
> distributed the development of the various bits can be as only the
> gatekeepers can commit to the mainline.

I don't see that necessarily needs to be so.  Different projects should be able to have different gatekeepers/maintainers.  If that's problematic, if GitHub won't support separate maintainer groups for different repositories of D-Programming-Language, there are probably other ways round it -- e.g. the maintainers could have a separate project branch, and the D-Programming-Language repo could auto-pull from it (and never be pushed to directly).

Also, so long as everyone is trustworthy and limits their activity to their sphere of responsibility, there's no reason why you shouldn't just have a large maintainer group.  If you can't trust maintainer-of-project-X to only use admin powers for project X, and not for project Y as well, then why is he/she maintainer of project X in the first place?

On 9 September 2013 10:31, Joseph Rushton Wakeling <joseph.wakeling@webdrake.net> wrote:
>
> I completely agree that QtD should be a priority project -- I think Qt's importance is only going to grow.
>
> Perhaps this is a nice point to re-iterate my earlier plea for consideration of Qt Creator as a potential cross-platform D IDE? :-)

Shouldn't be difficult.  ;-)

-- 
Iain Buclaw

*(p < e ? p++ : p) = (c & 0x0f) + '0';

On 09/09/13 11:29, Ramon wrote:
> Well, to me someone who talks in a negative way about another user (or "smartly"
> works out subtle differences in such remarks) rather than about D related issues
> looks like an idiot.
>
> Isn't it beautiful to experience variety of perception?

There's nothing idiotic about asking people to behave civilly and not use sarcastic nicknames for other software products, even when one has good reason to disapprove of them.  A variety of perception is good, expressing yourself in a way that makes people more likely to ignore or dismiss your perception isn't.

Besides, the D community ought to be a friendly environment for developers from any platform.  Tolerance for sneering nicknames can be offputting for people from the platforms being sneered at -- and if they're less likely to join the community as a result, the variety of perception will be decreased.

> I sincerely hope it's not too immature brat looking to suggest that we focus on
> D related issues again.

Making the D community a pleasant place for everyone _is_ a D-related issue.

In my experience it's a very typical problem of technical people in general (I don't excuse myself here) that they focus predominantly on technical issues at the expense of understanding how their ways of expressing themselves are perceived by other people.  The result is very often a lot of unnecessary conflict and failure of communication, and a lot of interpersonal grievances that are completely avoidable.

This conversation is a good example.  You seem to think that everyone is accusing you of being immature.  Actually, this whole thread of conversation is an appeal to your maturity -- to your capacity to understand why people are concerned about these things, and to adapt accordingly.

On Monday, 9 September 2013 at 09:29:11 UTC, Ramon wrote:
> Well, to me someone who talks in a negative way about another user (or "smartly" works out subtle differences in such remarks) rather than about D related issues looks like an idiot.

You do understand that by saying Windoze you *are* insulting users that use that platform?

On a related note, I am using VisualD for more than a year and I'm happy that it will get a bigger support.