"Achilleas Margaritis" <Achilleas_member@pathlink.com> wrote in message news:c65fsp$2sm$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> Oh, it did not cross my mind that DTL stands for the D Template Library.
>
> Yes, I am old enough to remember C++!!! Hey, I work with C++ the last 7
years!!!
> :-)
>
> I posted a few times before, yes.
>
> It takes much more than a DTL, I am afraid.
>
> Yesterday, I did a presentation of D to my colleagues. They were impressed by the language, but they all asked the same question:
>
> "What can I do with it ?"
>
> Come on guys, it's the APIs that count. We all know this...without APIs, D is doomed to failure.
>
> Somebody will say that C++ did not fail, even if they were no APIs available. Well, that is half the truth. There are lots of C++ apps around, each one based on a specific toolkit provided either by the vendor of the O/S (WIN32/MFC, Motif) or by a third party (Qt, WxWindows, etc).
>
> When these companies needed to use C++ in order to write big applications,
there
> was nothing around so they invested and produced the toolkits mentioned above. But now the situation is different. D comes at a time that Java/.NET reigns supreme, and the C++ world is covered by the toolkits mentioned above.
>
> That is why, in my opinion, D needs a uniform set of cross-platform
high-quality
> APIs to begin with.

I don't imagine anyone would disagree with you.

What libraries are you planning to write?

>
> In article <pan.2004.04.20.22.57.02.785748@yahoo.ca>, Ant says...
> >
> >On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 00:27:08 +0300, Achilleas Margaritis wrote:
> >
> >> Well, if anybody cares about APIs, let this thread be the start of it.
> >>
> >> I am a newbie in this forum (although I read the newsgroup for a long time
now),
> >> and I don't have the slightest idea on what DTL is.
> >
> >I guess it stands for D template Library.
> >
> >I don't know if you are old enough to know about
> >a language called C++.
> >
> >The idea comes from the C++ Standard Template Library.
> >
> >Ant
> >PS I seem to remember your name.
> >however say you're new to the group.
> >Did you post before here?
> >
>
>

In article <c65gso$4lv$1@digitaldaemon.com>, Matthew says...
>
>
>"Achilleas Margaritis" <Achilleas_member@pathlink.com> wrote in message news:c65fsp$2sm$1@digitaldaemon.com...
>> Oh, it did not cross my mind that DTL stands for the D Template Library.
>>
>> Yes, I am old enough to remember C++!!! Hey, I work with C++ the last 7
>years!!!
>> :-)
>>
>> I posted a few times before, yes.
>>
>> It takes much more than a DTL, I am afraid.
>>
>> Yesterday, I did a presentation of D to my colleagues. They were impressed by the language, but they all asked the same question:
>>
>> "What can I do with it ?"
>>
>> Come on guys, it's the APIs that count. We all know this...without APIs, D is doomed to failure.
>>
>> Somebody will say that C++ did not fail, even if they were no APIs available. Well, that is half the truth. There are lots of C++ apps around, each one based on a specific toolkit provided either by the vendor of the O/S (WIN32/MFC, Motif) or by a third party (Qt, WxWindows, etc).
>>
>> When these companies needed to use C++ in order to write big applications,
>there
>> was nothing around so they invested and produced the toolkits mentioned above. But now the situation is different. D comes at a time that Java/.NET reigns supreme, and the C++ world is covered by the toolkits mentioned above.
>>
>> That is why, in my opinion, D needs a uniform set of cross-platform
>high-quality
>> APIs to begin with.
>
>I don't imagine anyone would disagree with you.
>
>What libraries are you planning to write?

Isn't that exactly what he is trying to avoid?

First let's see what's needed and how it's should be implemented.
Then the first that needs it would write it (for the platform s/he needs it).

Ant

Matthew wrote:
> Cool. Thanks for the info.
> 
> Lars/Achilleas/JC/anyone, does someone want to see if they can prize an opinion
> out of Walter on this one?

On the other hand, perhaps Walter will continue to neglect the library until such time that "child protective services" places Phobos in a foster home.

There seems to be an accumulating collection of Phobos bugs in with simple fixes that aren't corrected in later releases. Not that they're major things, but it's discouraging. Of course, if the upcoming DMD 0.83 fixes these I won't have to re-post bug reports.

> "J C Calvarese" <jcc7@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:c64ilb$1jhh$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> 
>>Matthew wrote:
>>
>>>I am still of the same opinion as when Lars suggested this several months
>>>ago. (My post was "Re: D standard library group proposal", on the 4th Feb
>>>2004. I don't know how to use the web interface to search, I'm afraid.)
>>
>>I found your message: http://www.digitalmars.com/drn-bin/wwwnews?D/23166.
>>
>>I think your points are as valid now as when you wrote it.
>>
>>
>>By the way, if you find the message in your newsreader, you can probably
>>"View Source" or "View Headers" to find out the message number in 2
>>seconds. For example:
>>
>>Path: digitalmars.com!not-for-mail
>>...
>>X-Complaints-To: usenet@digitalmars.com
>>NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 20:31:42 +0000 (UTC)
>>X-Priority: 3
>>X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
>>X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409
>>X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409
>>Xref: digitalmars.com D:27944
>>
>>The "Xref" in the last line of the header has the magic number. So the
>>link to this example message is:
>>http://www.digitalmars.com/drn-bin/wwwnews?D/27944
>>
>>Just in case you wanted to know...
>>
>>-- 
>>Justin
>>http://jcc_7.tripod.com/d/
> 
> 
> 


-- 
Justin
http://jcc_7.tripod.com/d/

I think it's getting to the point where something needs to be done. I've four or five Phobos things I'm bugging Walter about, but at the same time I'm causing him lots of work with significant language/compiler changes.

Maybe it's time for Lars' DSLG? I'm certainly still willing to volunteer in the review capacity that was discussed in Feb.

"J C Calvarese" <jcc7@cox.net> wrote in message news:c6759k$30n9$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> Matthew wrote:
> > Cool. Thanks for the info.
> >
> > Lars/Achilleas/JC/anyone, does someone want to see if they can prize an
opinion
> > out of Walter on this one?
>
> On the other hand, perhaps Walter will continue to neglect the library until such time that "child protective services" places Phobos in a foster home.
>
> There seems to be an accumulating collection of Phobos bugs in with simple fixes that aren't corrected in later releases. Not that they're major things, but it's discouraging. Of course, if the upcoming DMD 0.83 fixes these I won't have to re-post bug reports.
>
> > "J C Calvarese" <jcc7@cox.net> wrote in message news:c64ilb$1jhh$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> >
> >>Matthew wrote:
> >>
> >>>I am still of the same opinion as when Lars suggested this several months ago. (My post was "Re: D standard library group proposal", on the 4th Feb 2004. I don't know how to use the web interface to search, I'm afraid.)
> >>
> >>I found your message: http://www.digitalmars.com/drn-bin/wwwnews?D/23166.
> >>
> >>I think your points are as valid now as when you wrote it.
> >>
> >>
> >>By the way, if you find the message in your newsreader, you can probably "View Source" or "View Headers" to find out the message number in 2 seconds. For example:
> >>
> >>Path: digitalmars.com!not-for-mail
> >>...
> >>X-Complaints-To: usenet@digitalmars.com
> >>NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 20:31:42 +0000 (UTC)
> >>X-Priority: 3
> >>X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
> >>X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409
> >>X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409
> >>Xref: digitalmars.com D:27944
> >>
> >>The "Xref" in the last line of the header has the magic number. So the link to this example message is: http://www.digitalmars.com/drn-bin/wwwnews?D/27944
> >>
> >>Just in case you wanted to know...
> >>
> >>-- 
> >>Justin
> >>http://jcc_7.tripod.com/d/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> -- 
> Justin
> http://jcc_7.tripod.com/d/

I'm not a fan of the "committee" approach, but I wholeheartedly agree that something needs to be done (just to offload Walter if nothing else); a small committee might be the answer.

Further, I don't see why this would be constrained to Phobos only ... for example, I would imagine that some other independent projects might be subject to the same scrutiny.

- Kris



"Matthew" <matthew.hat@stlsoft.dot.org> wrote in message news:c676j7$18n$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> I think it's getting to the point where something needs to be done. I've
four or
> five Phobos things I'm bugging Walter about, but at the same time I'm
causing him
> lots of work with significant language/compiler changes.
>
> Maybe it's time for Lars' DSLG? I'm certainly still willing to volunteer
in the
> review capacity that was discussed in Feb.
>
> "J C Calvarese" <jcc7@cox.net> wrote in message news:c6759k$30n9$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> > Matthew wrote:
> > > Cool. Thanks for the info.
> > >
> > > Lars/Achilleas/JC/anyone, does someone want to see if they can prize
an
> opinion
> > > out of Walter on this one?
> >
> > On the other hand, perhaps Walter will continue to neglect the library until such time that "child protective services" places Phobos in a foster home.
> >
> > There seems to be an accumulating collection of Phobos bugs in with simple fixes that aren't corrected in later releases. Not that they're major things, but it's discouraging. Of course, if the upcoming DMD 0.83 fixes these I won't have to re-post bug reports.
> >
> > > "J C Calvarese" <jcc7@cox.net> wrote in message news:c64ilb$1jhh$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> > >
> > >>Matthew wrote:
> > >>
> > >>>I am still of the same opinion as when Lars suggested this several
months
> > >>>ago. (My post was "Re: D standard library group proposal", on the 4th
Feb
> > >>>2004. I don't know how to use the web interface to search, I'm
afraid.)
> > >>
> > >>I found your message:
http://www.digitalmars.com/drn-bin/wwwnews?D/23166.
> > >>
> > >>I think your points are as valid now as when you wrote it.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>By the way, if you find the message in your newsreader, you can
probably
> > >>"View Source" or "View Headers" to find out the message number in 2 seconds. For example:
> > >>
> > >>Path: digitalmars.com!not-for-mail
> > >>...
> > >>X-Complaints-To: usenet@digitalmars.com
> > >>NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 20:31:42 +0000 (UTC)
> > >>X-Priority: 3
> > >>X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
> > >>X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409
> > >>X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409
> > >>Xref: digitalmars.com D:27944
> > >>
> > >>The "Xref" in the last line of the header has the magic number. So the link to this example message is: http://www.digitalmars.com/drn-bin/wwwnews?D/27944
> > >>
> > >>Just in case you wanted to know...
> > >>
> > >>--
> > >>Justin
> > >>http://jcc_7.tripod.com/d/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Justin
> > http://jcc_7.tripod.com/d/
>
>

> I'm not a fan of the "committee" approach,

me either, but ...

> but I wholeheartedly agree that
> something needs to be done (just to offload Walter if nothing else); a small
> committee might be the answer.

... we're dying here at the moment. I think Lars group idea, with my modifications, will work well.

> Further, I don't see why this would be constrained to Phobos only ... for example, I would imagine that some other independent projects might be subject to the same scrutiny.

Aren't they independent?

> - Kris
>
>
>
> "Matthew" <matthew.hat@stlsoft.dot.org> wrote in message news:c676j7$18n$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> > I think it's getting to the point where something needs to be done. I've
> four or
> > five Phobos things I'm bugging Walter about, but at the same time I'm
> causing him
> > lots of work with significant language/compiler changes.
> >
> > Maybe it's time for Lars' DSLG? I'm certainly still willing to volunteer
> in the
> > review capacity that was discussed in Feb.
> >
> > "J C Calvarese" <jcc7@cox.net> wrote in message news:c6759k$30n9$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> > > Matthew wrote:
> > > > Cool. Thanks for the info.
> > > >
> > > > Lars/Achilleas/JC/anyone, does someone want to see if they can prize
> an
> > opinion
> > > > out of Walter on this one?
> > >
> > > On the other hand, perhaps Walter will continue to neglect the library until such time that "child protective services" places Phobos in a foster home.
> > >
> > > There seems to be an accumulating collection of Phobos bugs in with simple fixes that aren't corrected in later releases. Not that they're major things, but it's discouraging. Of course, if the upcoming DMD 0.83 fixes these I won't have to re-post bug reports.
> > >
> > > > "J C Calvarese" <jcc7@cox.net> wrote in message news:c64ilb$1jhh$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> > > >
> > > >>Matthew wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>>I am still of the same opinion as when Lars suggested this several
> months
> > > >>>ago. (My post was "Re: D standard library group proposal", on the 4th
> Feb
> > > >>>2004. I don't know how to use the web interface to search, I'm
> afraid.)
> > > >>
> > > >>I found your message:
> http://www.digitalmars.com/drn-bin/wwwnews?D/23166.
> > > >>
> > > >>I think your points are as valid now as when you wrote it.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>By the way, if you find the message in your newsreader, you can
> probably
> > > >>"View Source" or "View Headers" to find out the message number in 2 seconds. For example:
> > > >>
> > > >>Path: digitalmars.com!not-for-mail
> > > >>...
> > > >>X-Complaints-To: usenet@digitalmars.com
> > > >>NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 20:31:42 +0000 (UTC)
> > > >>X-Priority: 3
> > > >>X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
> > > >>X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409
> > > >>X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409
> > > >>Xref: digitalmars.com D:27944
> > > >>
> > > >>The "Xref" in the last line of the header has the magic number. So the link to this example message is: http://www.digitalmars.com/drn-bin/wwwnews?D/27944
> > > >>
> > > >>Just in case you wanted to know...
> > > >>
> > > >>--
> > > >>Justin
> > > >>http://jcc_7.tripod.com/d/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Justin
> > > http://jcc_7.tripod.com/d/
> >
> >
>
>

Kris wrote:

>I'm not a fan of the "committee" approach, but I wholeheartedly agree that
>something needs to be done (just to offload Walter if nothing else); a small
>committee might be the answer.
>  
>
The small committee could filter all of the bug-fixes ect... that come from the wider community and hand a few fixes into Walter at once.  Could take a bit of time of Walters shoulders.

>Further, I don't see why this would be constrained to Phobos only ... for
>example, I would imagine that some other independent projects might be
>subject to the same scrutiny.
>
>- Kris
>  
>


-- 
-Anderson: http://badmama.com.au/~anderson/

I think D is in fact in need of several things:

1) A template library.  Hopefully DTL will cover this.

2) A LIBC-style library.  This is more or less what Phobos is, but I think it needs some restructuring.

3) A class library like JFC.

I think it's #3 that needs the most work at the moment.  Now, I know there's
some complications in
this:  namely, since D is not a runtime'd language we won't have lots of runtime
libs hanging around,
which is why I think it should work like this:

A D class library committee will define the interfaces, contracts, invariants,
and unit-tests for a full set
of APIs like JFC or .NET's core classes.  Then individuals may write libraries
that conform to this
specification, and perhaps extend it.

Example:  This hypothetical class library might specify a socket-wrapper API.  I
might write a
networking library that implements the core API, but is optimized for game
writing.  It might have
additional support for other features, but it is required to implement the core
API.  This might include
things like requiring me to expose a Socket class in net.sockets.socket, and
specify a list of functions it
must implement.

I guess it boils down to this:  we need to define a module layout and minimum
API requirements for
libraries.  Then library authors are free to innovate and explore new features
to their hearts' content,
but a programmer is guaranteed a minimum level of functionality no matter which
library he uses.

Admittedly, there is no way to force someone to implement the code API, but I
think that if
implementing the core API spec were made an advertising point for a library,
people would be quick to
do so.

*phew*  That was rather long winded, but I think I got the point across.

Owen

In article <c677g5$2mi$1@digitaldaemon.com>, Kris says...
>
>I'm not a fan of the "committee" approach, but I wholeheartedly agree that something needs to be done (just to offload Walter if nothing else); a small committee might be the answer.
>
>Further, I don't see why this would be constrained to Phobos only ... for example, I would imagine that some other independent projects might be subject to the same scrutiny.
>
>- Kris
>
>
>
>"Matthew" <matthew.hat@stlsoft.dot.org> wrote in message news:c676j7$18n$1@digitaldaemon.com...
>> I think it's getting to the point where something needs to be done. I've
>four or
>> five Phobos things I'm bugging Walter about, but at the same time I'm
>causing him
>> lots of work with significant language/compiler changes.
>>
>> Maybe it's time for Lars' DSLG? I'm certainly still willing to volunteer
>in the
>> review capacity that was discussed in Feb.
>>
>> "J C Calvarese" <jcc7@cox.net> wrote in message news:c6759k$30n9$1@digitaldaemon.com...
>> > Matthew wrote:
>> > > Cool. Thanks for the info.
>> > >
>> > > Lars/Achilleas/JC/anyone, does someone want to see if they can prize
>an
>> opinion
>> > > out of Walter on this one?
>> >
>> > On the other hand, perhaps Walter will continue to neglect the library until such time that "child protective services" places Phobos in a foster home.
>> >
>> > There seems to be an accumulating collection of Phobos bugs in with simple fixes that aren't corrected in later releases. Not that they're major things, but it's discouraging. Of course, if the upcoming DMD 0.83 fixes these I won't have to re-post bug reports.
>> >
>> > > "J C Calvarese" <jcc7@cox.net> wrote in message news:c64ilb$1jhh$1@digitaldaemon.com...
>> > >
>> > >>Matthew wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >>>I am still of the same opinion as when Lars suggested this several
>months
>> > >>>ago. (My post was "Re: D standard library group proposal", on the 4th
>Feb
>> > >>>2004. I don't know how to use the web interface to search, I'm
>afraid.)
>> > >>
>> > >>I found your message:
>http://www.digitalmars.com/drn-bin/wwwnews?D/23166.
>> > >>
>> > >>I think your points are as valid now as when you wrote it.
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>By the way, if you find the message in your newsreader, you can
>probably
>> > >>"View Source" or "View Headers" to find out the message number in 2 seconds. For example:
>> > >>
>> > >>Path: digitalmars.com!not-for-mail
>> > >>...
>> > >>X-Complaints-To: usenet@digitalmars.com
>> > >>NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 20:31:42 +0000 (UTC)
>> > >>X-Priority: 3
>> > >>X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
>> > >>X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409
>> > >>X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409
>> > >>Xref: digitalmars.com D:27944
>> > >>
>> > >>The "Xref" in the last line of the header has the magic number. So the link to this example message is: http://www.digitalmars.com/drn-bin/wwwnews?D/27944
>> > >>
>> > >>Just in case you wanted to know...
>> > >>
>> > >>--
>> > >>Justin
>> > >>http://jcc_7.tripod.com/d/
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Justin
>> > http://jcc_7.tripod.com/d/
>>
>>
>
>

Matthew wrote:
> I think it's getting to the point where something needs to be done. I've four or
> five Phobos things I'm bugging Walter about, but at the same time I'm causing him
> lots of work with significant language/compiler changes.
> 
> Maybe it's time for Lars' DSLG? 

It certainly is (IMHO, that is).

> I'm certainly still willing to volunteer in the
> review capacity that was discussed in Feb.

I would volunteer to sit in the group (for at least a few minutes a week), although I no longer believe that I'm able to head it. Maybe I could be a member of the group proper, then retire to be a reviewer after many years of hard work? ;)

Seriously, dsource.org is the place for this. Not only does Phobos need
a foster home, it need to be placed in a version control repository.
Walter is still the boss of the language, but as we now have two compilers available, we more than ever need some central place to keep
common code distributed with both (all) of them.

But for anything of this to 'work', Walter needs to say that he accepts
that a group is in 'charge'. Walter will be able to review and veto,
of course. Well, you get my drift. We need a group, somewhere to keep
phobos, fix phobos, and get it released.

Lars Ivar Igesund

In article <c65nil$fei$1@digitaldaemon.com>, Ant says...
>
>In article <c65gso$4lv$1@digitaldaemon.com>, Matthew says...
>>
>>
>>"Achilleas Margaritis" <Achilleas_member@pathlink.com> wrote in message news:c65fsp$2sm$1@digitaldaemon.com...
>>> Oh, it did not cross my mind that DTL stands for the D Template Library.
>>>
>>> Yes, I am old enough to remember C++!!! Hey, I work with C++ the last 7
>>years!!!
>>> :-)
>>>
>>> I posted a few times before, yes.
>>>
>>> It takes much more than a DTL, I am afraid.
>>>
>>> Yesterday, I did a presentation of D to my colleagues. They were impressed by the language, but they all asked the same question:
>>>
>>> "What can I do with it ?"
>>>
>>> Come on guys, it's the APIs that count. We all know this...without APIs, D is doomed to failure.
>>>
>>> Somebody will say that C++ did not fail, even if they were no APIs available. Well, that is half the truth. There are lots of C++ apps around, each one based on a specific toolkit provided either by the vendor of the O/S (WIN32/MFC, Motif) or by a third party (Qt, WxWindows, etc).
>>>
>>> When these companies needed to use C++ in order to write big applications,
>>there
>>> was nothing around so they invested and produced the toolkits mentioned above. But now the situation is different. D comes at a time that Java/.NET reigns supreme, and the C++ world is covered by the toolkits mentioned above.
>>>
>>> That is why, in my opinion, D needs a uniform set of cross-platform
>>high-quality
>>> APIs to begin with.
>>
>>I don't imagine anyone would disagree with you.
>>
>>What libraries are you planning to write?
>
>Isn't that exactly what he is trying to avoid?
>
>First let's see what's needed and how it's should be implemented.
>Then the first that needs it would write it (for the platform s/he needs it).
>
>Ant
>
>

Exactly. It's not what I plan to write, it is what it is needed to get D accepted by software houses.

I think the following libs are needed:

1) collections
2) callbacks (signals and slots/events)
3) sockets
4) gui
5) database
6) filesystem
7) compression
8) xml

The Java's APIs is a good start...Qt is also another good place to look for what core APIs need.

Feel free to add anything you need.