Hello NG citizens,

I've followed the few threads about IO performance, standard libraries,  C compatibility and all the other things that might have sound totally important to be set to stone, either way. I would like to appeal to all contributors to keep it on a level of technical discussions. There are already way too much subtle, as well as "not so subtle", accusations and personal aggressions in the game, which makes given threads a tad uncomfortable.

It's of no interest for the D community to split it up into two parties.  The community how I know it is always helpful, sometimes to be taken with a pinch of salt, but I've never seen such discussions full of salt here, since I've started reading and participating.

Please, step back a bit and think twice about what you're going to post, for the sake of productivity and helping each other. There's no point in killing each other, verbally, as we're all grown up and shouldn't actually let ourselves be led by our animal instincts that much.

Kind regards,
Alexander Panek

Alexander Panek napisał(a):
> Hello NG citizens,
> 
> I've followed the few threads about IO performance, standard libraries,  C compatibility and all the other things that might have sound totally important to be set to stone, either way. I would like to appeal to all contributors to keep it on a level of technical discussions. There are already way too much subtle, as well as "not so subtle", accusations and personal aggressions in the game, which makes given threads a tad uncomfortable.
> 
> It's of no interest for the D community to split it up into two parties.  The community how I know it is always helpful, sometimes to be taken with a pinch of salt, but I've never seen such discussions full of salt here, since I've started reading and participating.
> 
> Please, step back a bit and think twice about what you're going to post, for the sake of productivity and helping each other. There's no point in killing each other, verbally, as we're all grown up and shouldn't actually let ourselves be led by our animal instincts that much.
> 
> Kind regards,
> Alexander Panek

I do understand why tango team is so flustrated. And I can understand why some words were said. But Alex here have a good point here. NG is public space, and flames only making bad job for D. I think if AA have a serious things to say and is ready for real discussion he can join #d.tango on freenode where all we can talk to tango developers. I'm looking forward for a serious irc debate, which log could be pasted then on NG. no need to fill NG with flame, there are enough D enemies all around the world, to fight eachother here ;)

P.S
Great work you do tango team \o/

P.S 2
Andrei, i am noone here. But i will apriciate if you would respect more people who did much more for D then you can think :) i know you are also very expirianced and quite famous person, but not only you ;)

P.S 3
peace! :D and as ALI G would say, RESPECT :D

Alexander Panek wrote:
> [...]
> It's of no interest for the D community to split it up into two parties.  The community how I know it is always helpful, sometimes to be taken with a pinch of salt, but I've never seen such discussions full of salt here, since I've started reading and participating.
> [...]

Hear, hear...if one regards the D community as a meta-organism trying to make its way in the world competing for attention with the communities built around other languages, one might rightfully say that it currently suffers from an autoimmune disorder.  Diabetes, multiple sclerosis, and fibromyalgia kill their sufferers slowly, and debilitate them in the meanwhile.

If we want our "organism" to become big and strong, then it is inevitable that it will suffer from some growing pains.  What we have to recognize is that while this community is built around technical common ground, it is still composed of human beings with feelings and attitudes.  And what humans want more than anything else, is respect. We want it so much we will kill for it.  Let's not kill each other trying to earn respect.  That can only end in a Pyhrric victory.  I find that respect is best earned when it is given.

On top of this is the problem of communication.  Communication is a very tricky business that we take for granted, but in fact, it is the most amazing thing that we do.  Communication is nothing less than mind control.  That's a pretty crazy idea, if you stop and think about it for a minute.  But in reality, communication is the attempt to impose a particular thought pattern in the minds of other individuals. Surprisingly enough, it works pretty well most of the time.  Many of us do indeed possess enough shared mutable state to make this system work.  Unfortunately, this process can end in deadlock and livelock, priority inversion and starvation.  A good, cheap solution is retry with exponential backoff.

People coming from different backgrounds are going to communicate differently, because they have a different set of shared assumptions. This is both good and bad.  It's good because different backgrounds bring a diversity of knowledge, just like you don't want your genetic pool to get too inbred.  It's bad because the disconnect in core values and meanings can cause misunderstandings in communication.  Parochialism is xenophobia is racism.  We all have it, we all do it.  My way is the best way.  Unfortunately, that's very rarely true.

In reality, coexistence comes from compromise.  At the root of most disagreements lay a difference in values.  The reason that religions are insanely successful meta-organisms is that they give their members a set of core values that they can agree on independently of their other values.  People in any given religion come from all across the spectrum, and any two of them will disagree on just as many things as any two people picked randomly from the entire population.  But what makes these two people different is that they have a set of values that they share that often trumps their differences in such a way that they can find common ground.  That's a pretty powerful ability, and not something to be taken lightly.

I conclude that we need a Pope of D.  Just kidding.  We already have one, we just need to get him a pointy hat.  More seriously, if D is going to advance from tribalism to civilized culture, we need to find a set of unifying principles that define the D community, and use those to smooth over the differences that arise naturally from diverse backgrounds.

But more immediately, we need to have a Good Friday peace accord, where everyone is granted a summary pardon, and we try to start fresh with the aim of striving for common understanding and mutual respect.  I think it is equally important to recognize the work that has been done in the D community thus far, and the work that is yet to be done to make D a world-class programming platform.  Every programmer brings with him/her a set of values about how things ought to be done and what's important.  We can't deny that each of us has these values, nor can we just turn them off at the flip of a switch.  However, through a process of incremental refinement (like simulated annealing), we can come to a mutual understanding that respects all the values involved.  The high-temperature phase is done, and now we need to move into the low-temp cooling phase to find the optimum.

I suggest we leave the stdio thread as a memorial to the blood shed in the name of D.  We can still talk about stdio in a new thread, but let's try to do so in a more conciliatory and respectful tone all around. Let's see if we can make a fresh start and get big without falling apart in the process.  Now I'm going to take my soapbox and go home...

Dave

Alexander Panek wrote:
> Hello NG citizens,
> 
> I've followed the few threads about IO performance, standard libraries,  C compatibility and all the other things that might have sound totally important to be set to stone, either way. I would like to appeal to all contributors to keep it on a level of technical discussions. There are already way too much subtle, as well as "not so subtle", accusations and personal aggressions in the game, which makes given threads a tad uncomfortable.
> 
> It's of no interest for the D community to split it up into two parties.  The community how I know it is always helpful, sometimes to be taken with a pinch of salt, but I've never seen such discussions full of salt here, since I've started reading and participating.
> 
> Please, step back a bit and think twice about what you're going to post, for the sake of productivity and helping each other. There's no point in killing each other, verbally, as we're all grown up and shouldn't actually let ourselves be led by our animal instincts that much.
> 
> Kind regards,
> Alexander Panek

Looking at this in hindsight, we've seen worse here. At one time folks were almost lynching Walter, and now that I think about it, actually on more than one occasion, with different reasons each time. I myself was with the mob a few times (blush)! This time the target seems to be Andrei.

Sifting through what's been recently written, I find (totally IMHO, of course), instead of what's been said, I think the main reason has remained undiscovered -- both by spectators, the plaintiffs, and the "accused".

Whenever my ex used to kick my ass, it turned out to be about something else. Most of the time she didn't know this herself, until I let the dust settle and walk it through with her.

----

I think (or should I say, my guess is) that it's about the recent shift of power in D development. In the old days, it was this NG, and none but this NG that was the source, the forum and the ultimate judge, of what was and was not to become D features.

Today, it seems, the majority of new decisions are created outside this NG, and handed to us "as given". And most of the time it's Andrei that first tells us about the things.

I would downright expect this to *piss off* quite some participants. I for myself have taken a vacation here (as the regulars probably have noticed) because I feel D is in /very good and competent hands now/.

Before Walter brought Andrei really into this, I kept writing that we really need some Academic Rigor, Thorough Insight, and Profound Diligence, at this stage of D development. After some 12-18 months of this, Andrei suddenly started participating. Thank you, Walter!

I think that JCC could corroborate this by finding the appropriate quotes (man, did I ever see a person more adept at that! But, please don't do it JCC, this time I'm rhetoric!)


At the same time, we're blessed with some of the less fortunate but more verbous participants having radically reduced their presence, which saves bandwidth by not having us all explain crystal clear things in dozens of posts each.

Yes, the center of D development, visions, and influence has shifted. But I think this came at the right time. Honestly, guys, we couldn't have brought D much further -- simply because we lack the now needed qualities (listed above).


Now, as far as Tango goes, I think it is a formidable enterprise, and I honestly think that without Tango, D's future looks, er, less than shiny. (See, I avoided the pun!)

That Kris and even John (I almost soiled myself!) are on the barricades, IMHO, simply tells us that a lot of communicating has happened outside this NG, and that Alexei hasn't been there. But that's simple group dynamics. Whenever a person in controversy is not around, any group of people sooner or later start harboring adverse feelings about him -- if they regularly meet without him.


So, again IMHO, this is no biggie, just the unavoidable result of the above stated history.

If we see it as it is, and contemplate a moment about it, I'd guess everybody shrugs and the issue is buried. D doesn't need that kind of animosity -- especially when it's not genuinely about the persons at all, only about the "shift in power".

Georg Wrede wrote:
> Alexander Panek wrote:
>> [...]
> 
> Looking at this in hindsight, we've seen worse here. At one time folks were almost lynching Walter, and now that I think about it, actually on more than one occasion, with different reasons each time. I myself was with the mob a few times (blush)! This time the target seems to be Andrei.
> 
> Sifting through what's been recently written, I find (totally IMHO, of course), instead of what's been said, I think the main reason has remained undiscovered -- both by spectators, the plaintiffs, and the "accused".
> 
> Whenever my ex used to kick my ass, it turned out to be about something else. Most of the time she didn't know this herself, until I let the dust settle and walk it through with her.

Heh, yea. Sounds familiar.

> [...]
> Yes, the center of D development, visions, and influence has shifted. But I think this came at the right time. Honestly, guys, we couldn't have brought D much further -- simply because we lack the now needed qualities (listed above).
> 
> Now, as far as Tango goes, I think it is a formidable enterprise, and I honestly think that without Tango, D's future looks, er, less than shiny. (See, I avoided the pun!)
> 
> That Kris and even John (I almost soiled myself!) are on the barricades, IMHO, simply tells us that a lot of communicating has happened outside this NG, and that Alexei hasn't been there. But that's simple group dynamics. Whenever a person in controversy is not around, any group of people sooner or later start harboring adverse feelings about him -- if they regularly meet without him.
> 
> So, again IMHO, this is no biggie, just the unavoidable result of the above stated history.
> 
> If we see it as it is, and contemplate a moment about it, I'd guess everybody shrugs and the issue is buried. D doesn't need that kind of animosity -- especially when it's not genuinely about the persons at all, only about the "shift in power".

I agree, with almost everything (not to say everything). The only thing that concerns me is, that with the ongoing development and less centralized communication in the NG, it might come to weird circumstances where people just start bugging each other, stepping on one another's feet, or what not. This is totally okay, up to some extent, yet we have a few leading people here in the D community - lets stick with their names: Walter, Andrei, Kris, Sean, Lars Ivar, and so on - who have their opinion and visions how to make D shine. I don't want to see them going into completely different directions because of personal disagreements led to by late-night discussions filled with aggression.

D can do better than that! I know this, I've seen this, I don't want to lose this, and I do think neither the above listed want this, nor any other people actively participating this newsgroup, or some projects that are not even known here.

I have a reason for greeting people in #D with "D nation". It may be just a language, but most people using D and participating in either way, are very knowledgable and especially nice people. Even though the amount of people using D is growing, as well as the channel btw., there's this core of people here on the newsgroup, discussing features, problems and what not else. This core of people are split into two parties at the moment. Those who use and defend Tango, and those who use and defend Phobos (it seems). I really don't like this. It's, as said, not only a pinch of salt thrown into the NG, but a whole sack of salt.

This may have happened already, but that's no reason to do it again, aye? :)

Kind regards,
Alexander Panek

Alexander Panek wrote:
> Those who use and defend Tango, and those who use and defend Phobos (it seems). I really don't like this. It's, as said, not only a pinch of salt thrown into the NG, but a whole sack of salt.

Tango and Phobos are not competing with each other.




Walter needs and uses Phobos for DMD development.
The Tango guys are doing us (the D community, including Walter, Don, Kris, me, and "you, the reader of this post", and the future users of D), a great favor by creating the library that D will ultimately be used with (both on Windows and Linux, both with DMD and GDC).


To demand that Walter immerses himself in library development (as in Tango) would be stretching a single man's turf to beyond even Walter's stride. So, the current dichotomy of two libraries is /good/ for us.

This is not G. Bush vs. the world, it is about D.

Georg Wrede wrote:
> Alexander Panek wrote:
>> Those who use and defend Tango, and those who use and defend Phobos (it seems). I really don't like this. It's, as said, not only a pinch of salt thrown into the NG, but a whole sack of salt.
> 
> Tango and Phobos are not competing with each other.

Sure not, at least not on the surface..

> [...] This is not G. Bush vs. the world, it is about D.

Seems like this didn't quite come out as I wanted it to come out. :P

Georg Wrede wrote:
> Alexander Panek wrote:
>> Hello NG citizens,
>>

...

> I think (or should I say, my guess is) that it's about the recent shift of power in D development. In the old days, it was this NG, and none but this NG that was the source, the forum and the ultimate judge, of what was and was not to become D features.

The newsgroup was the place to discuss possible changes, but there was no confusion that Walter was the one who made the actual decision.

> Today, it seems, the majority of new decisions are created outside this NG, and handed to us "as given". And most of the time it's Andrei that first tells us about the things.

The majority of new decisions have always been made outside of the newsgroup, but we'd all find out when we read Walter's surprising post in the newsgroup.

But now it seems like Walter has a spokesperson who makes the announcements for him.

> I would downright expect this to *piss off* quite some participants. I for myself have taken a vacation here (as the regulars probably have noticed) because I feel D is in /very good and competent hands now/.
> 
> Before Walter brought Andrei really into this, I kept writing that we really need some Academic Rigor, Thorough Insight, and Profound Diligence, at this stage of D development. After some 12-18 months of this, Andrei suddenly started participating. Thank you, Walter!
> 
> I think that JCC could corroborate this by finding the appropriate quotes (man, did I ever see a person more adept at that! But, please don't do it JCC, this time I'm rhetoric!)

There's no need to drag me into this. I'll let you do your own research. ;)

I don't know what's going on here. I've known Kris and John for quite a while from their involvement in D projects, and I trust that they don't have any agenda except to improve D and spread the joy of D. But other people might have other goals.

In any case, I don't see any signs that the D community is splitting into 2 factions (as the OP seems to suggest): pro-Phobos and pro-Tango (or anti-Tango and pro-Tango). If anything, it just seems to be some sort of nebulous disagreement between Kris and Andrei.

-- 
jcc7

Georg Wrede wrote:
> 
> Looking at this in hindsight, we've seen worse here. At one time folks were almost lynching Walter, and now that I think about it, actually on more than one occasion, with different reasons each time.
Kinda OT however one thing I've observed about Walters replies is that he is very diplomatic.  I mean even if he doesn't agree with something, his answers (at least to me) seem to be fair and not-an-attack (ok, whats a better word for this?).  I note, that often he ignores issues that are controversial.  I imagine that he won't be replying to this thread, or at least only to parts that are not controversial.

Of course most people are Walter supporters here, so the best examples of this are: that recent speech Walter did with those C++ people and also Walters replies to groups like the SlashDot crowd.  Although I have to admit, there have been a couple of slashdot messages he sent where frustration appeared to get the better of him.

Working this way I think actually enhances your position; making people much more likely to agree with your point of view.  It is particularly good when you show an understanding of the others point of view.

Note, I'm not sucking up to Walter and I know that there are other regulars on this group that are very good at keeping conversions professional, but I don't want to single anyone else out (because I'd probably forget someone).

I hope this does not sound like an attack on anyone, I just think the way Walter replies to messages is a good example of how to work effectively on this group.  If only we could all write as well as Walter.

BTW:  Does anyone have any websites on effectively dealing with people (face to face).  Its actually something I am continually trying to improve in myself.

-Joel

janderson wrote:
> BTW:  Does anyone have any websites on effectively dealing with people (face to face).  Its actually something I am continually trying to improve in myself.

These two have helped me a lot:

"How to Win Friends and Influence People", by Dale Carnegie

"The Power of Positive Thinking", by Norman Vincent Peale

They're the classics, and for good reason.