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December 23

I have previously posted regarding my concerns about this project, that it felt like a dysfunctional family. More recently, I said I saw hopeful signs. Then I read the "D is our last hope" thread.

It is discouraging to me that I feel that I need to lecture some of you about how to disagree. If you are an adult worthy of the term and are also a software development professional, I don't think it is too much to expect that the boundaries of good taste and polite behavior will be respected. I am not seeing that here. Calling the leader of the project a "stubborn fool" is just not the way to make your concerns known (I do not intend to point the finger at one person here; I am using this as an example of other posts that I think have crossed the taste/civility line). I have my own disagreements with some of Walter's decisions, but the fact is that without him, this project wouldn't exist. And if you don't like the way he runs it and can't convince him that you are correct, then you have options that would reflect far better on you than name-calling.

/Don Allen

December 23

On Saturday, 23 December 2023 at 20:17:29 UTC, Don Allen wrote:

>

I have previously posted regarding my concerns about this project, that it felt like a dysfunctional family. More recently, I said I saw hopeful signs. Then I read the "D is our last hope" thread.

It is discouraging to me that I feel that I need to lecture some of you about how to disagree. If you are an adult worthy of the term and are also a software development professional, I don't think it is too much to expect that the boundaries of good taste and polite behavior will be respected. I am not seeing that here. Calling the leader of the project a "stubborn fool" is just not the way to make your concerns known (I do not intend to point the finger at one person here; I am using this as an example of other posts that I think have crossed the taste/civility line). I have my own disagreements with some of Walter's decisions, but the fact is that without him, this project wouldn't exist. And if you don't like the way he runs it and can't convince him that you are correct, then you have options that would reflect far better on you than name-calling.

/Don Allen

Absolutely. I even agree with the person whom you've quoted, but at the very least, elevated language is better used "behind closed doors." But at this point, as you imply, it's better to consult with other people and start the forking process.

December 24
On 24/12/2023 9:17 AM, Don Allen wrote:
> I have previously posted regarding my concerns about this project, that it felt like a dysfunctional family. More recently, I said I saw hopeful signs. Then I read the "D is our last hope" thread.
> 
> It is discouraging to me that I feel that I need to lecture some of you about how to disagree. If you are an adult worthy of the term and are also a software development professional, I don't think it is too much to expect that the boundaries of good taste and polite behavior will be respected. I am not seeing that here. Calling the leader of the project a "stubborn fool" is just not the way to make your concerns known (I do not intend to point the finger at one person here; I am using this as an example of other posts that I think have crossed the taste/civility line). I have my own disagreements with some of Walter's decisions, but the fact is that without him, this project wouldn't exist. And if you don't like the way he runs it and can't convince him that you are correct, then you have options that would reflect far better on you than name-calling.
> 
> /Don Allen

Agreed.

A lot of vitriol was passed around.

Such negativity to that extreme, regardless of what people such as Walter has or hasn't done is very destructive.

It pushes people away, it does not grow the community it makes it significantly smaller.

It has to stop.

Clearly good faith has broken down, to the point people feel it is ok to black mail the DLF.
December 24

On Saturday, 23 December 2023 at 20:17:29 UTC, Don Allen wrote:

>

the fact is that without him, this project wouldn't exist.

In the spirit of Christmas, let's spread holiday cheer and give thanks to the many people who made D what it is today.

Walter Bright, of course, wrote the first draft of the language and compiler, and lends his public credibility to the project. But, he is far from alone in making the project exist.


Without Andrei Alexandrescu, D certainly wouldn't look anything like it does now. Being the primary author of Phobos as it exists today (Phobos before Andrei was essentially recycled Javascript 3 support modules and some thinly wrapped C bindings), Andrei has quite possibly had the greatest single influence on the timbre of D code.

Additionally, Andrei is the one primarily responsible for organizing the D Language Foundation and the various D scholarship programs that drive much of the internal development.

He also lent his pen to D, writing the book titled "The D Programming Language", laying out both a resource for learning D and a vision for its future, in a remarkably readable format.

I'm sure if I actually thought about this, the list could go on.


Don Clugston did significant work on D's math support and is notable for being the one who created CTFE.


Bill Baxter, Matthew Wilson, and a few others are influential in creating much of D metaprogramming as we know it today, including innovations such as static if and mixin template.


Timon Gehr, Jonathan Marler, Daniel Murphy, Kenji Hara, Sebastian Wilzbach, Mike Franklin, Benjamin Thaut, Michel Fortin, Jacob Carlborg, David Gileadi, and so many more have all left significant marks on the D language and compiler.


Jan Knepper and Brad Roberts are names we don't often see in copyright notices, but have been key figures behind the scenes running D's infrastructure. If not for their contributions, we would probably not have ever heard of D, as the website wouldn't work! Andrew Edwards deserves a callout for kickstarting off the recent series of DConfs.


David Friedman left his mark on D by starting the gdc project, producing the first fully, front to back, free software compiler for the D language.

Johannes Pfau and later, Iain Buclaw, would pick this up and bring serious credibility to D by leveraging gcc's broad target support and advanced optimization capabilities to keep it competitive with new upstarts, and the vast experience Iain Buclaw has brought to bear on D for the better part of 14 years now has kept it compatible with use cases the rest of the team didn't even know existed.


Tomas Lindquist Olsen and Christian Kamm are primarily responsible for kicking off the LDC project, later picked up by David Nadlinger (who added ARM support!), and now maintained by Martin Kinkelin.

Without their work, D quite possibly wouldn't work on modern Macs, Android phones, or WebAssembly.


Sean Kelly is primarily responsible for druntime as we know it today. If not for him, D would in all probability be significantly less capable than it is now, notably, it was his Fiber code that allowed Sönke Ludwig's work to get started.

Other notable names that come to mind in this area are Alex Rønne Petersen, Leandro Lucarella, Martin Nowak, Steven Schveighoffer.


Brad Anderson, Mike Wey, Christopher Miller, Lars Tandle Kyllingstad, Vladimir Panteleev, Mike Parker, Jonathan M. Davis, Ketmar Dark, Guillaume Piolat, many, many, many more in writing the libraries that make D what it is.


When it comes to the tooling support, Rainer Schuetze, Brian Schott, and Jan Jurzitza immediately come to mind, and I know there's others, there's a bit of recency bias in my memory.


Laeeth Isharc needs to get special mention for funding and organizing so much D-related work.


I'd call out Paul Backus, David Simcha, Dejan Lekic, Peter Alexander, JMD again, and so many others for new user support over the years, without whom who knows how many people wouldn't have stuck around past the initial hurdles.


And there's a great many I didn't mention here.

Of course, it is possible, even likely, that if many of these individuals weren't there, someone else would have done similar work. So maybe, just maybe, we can say that without them, the project would still exist.

But in the timeline we're living, these are the people who were actually there, who actually did do the work to make these things happen.

Ho ho ho. Merry Christmas.

December 24

On Saturday, 23 December 2023 at 20:17:29 UTC, Don Allen wrote:

>

Calling the leader of the project a "stubborn fool" is just not the way to make your concerns known (I do not intend to point the finger at one person here; I am using this as an example of other posts that I think have crossed the taste/civility line).

The D forums have a very high tolerance bar; as people would get kicked out in other forums for the attacks we see here on Walter.

I am just an observer, and I always wonder how Walter has managed to get people to contribute so much to D; this is not easy in a non-commercial loosely managed opensource project.

December 24

On Saturday, 23 December 2023 at 20:17:29 UTC, Don Allen wrote:

>

I have previously posted regarding my concerns about this project, that it felt like a dysfunctional family. More recently, I said I saw hopeful signs. Then I read the "D is our last hope" thread.

It is discouraging to me that I feel that I need to lecture some of you about how to disagree. If you are an adult worthy of the term and are also a software development professional, I don't think it is too much to expect that the boundaries of good taste and polite behavior will be respected. I am not seeing that here. Calling the leader of the project a "stubborn fool" is just not the way to make your concerns known (I do not intend to point the finger at one person here; I am using this as an example of other posts that I think have crossed the taste/civility line). I have my own disagreements with some of Walter's decisions, but the fact is that without him, this project wouldn't exist. And if you don't like the way he runs it and can't convince him that you are correct, then you have options that would reflect far better on you than name-calling.

/Don Allen

the problem is, all of this is not news. we've been at the exact same point before and nothing is done to change it. D is still losing contributors because the guys in charge pretend the problem does not exist. D is losing contributors simply because their contributions are not getting the deserved consideration and attention.

see this thread for example: https://forum.dlang.org/post/ncbawciyybdksecurmsc@forum.dlang.org

December 24
On 12/24/2023 6:57 AM, Dibyendu Majumdar wrote:
> I am just an observer, and I always wonder how Walter has managed to get people to contribute so much to D; this is not easy in a non-commercial loosely managed opensource project.

I don't get people to do anything, they're all self-motivated.

Though I do believe it is rare and remarkable that so many wonderful people have generously given so much of their time and expertise. I am most grateful for their gifts to D, the DLF, and the D community. I regard the D community as a community of my dear friends.
December 24
On Sunday, 24 December 2023 at 17:23:12 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
> I don't get people to do anything, they're all self-motivated.
>
> Though I do believe it is rare and remarkable that so many wonderful people have generously given so much of their time and expertise. I am most grateful for their gifts to D, the DLF, and the D community. I regard the D community as a community of my dear friends.

I think you are being too modest; people don't just contribute to D because of self motivation; if this was generally true then every language project would get contributors easily.

Its a mystery to me, but I think that there needs to be an environment that encourages and creates that motivation, which you have managed to do. Part of this may be the exact opposite of what people claimed in the other thread; you have accepted contributions from people when they made sense; it requires good taste and great insight to see what contributions matter.
December 24

On Sunday, 24 December 2023 at 14:36:20 UTC, Adam D Ruppe wrote:

>

On Saturday, 23 December 2023 at 20:17:29 UTC, Don Allen wrote:

>

the fact is that without him, this project wouldn't exist.

In the spirit of Christmas, let's spread holiday cheer and give thanks to the many people who made D what it is today.
Ho ho ho. Merry Christmas.

Nice post, I would add also a couple of people
Ilya (Mir, asdf) and Adam (arsd)

Thanks for great libraries and Merry Christmas!

December 26

On Saturday, 23 December 2023 at 20:17:29 UTC, Don Allen wrote:

>

I have previously posted regarding my concerns about this
[...]
as an example of other posts that I think have crossed the taste/civility line). I have my own disagreements with some of Walter's decisions, but the fact is that without him, this project wouldn't exist. And if you don't like the way he runs it and can't convince him that you are correct, then you have options that would reflect far better on you than name-calling.

/Don Allen

I really got tired from "agree with me or you are stupid". Some people just can't take the fact others too can have opinions and they don't need to be the same with you. If they act like that, just ignore them and watch them quit forum.

Things can't happen without discussing. Discussion is needed for see the disadvantages of language and possibly fix it, and of course discussion is not just "accept my opinion".

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