http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1rx8r2/go_binary_sizes_are_growing_out_of_control/

http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1rvltx/scala_1_would_not_program_again/#new


Andrei

On 2013-12-03 00:36:28 +0000, Andrei Alexandrescu said:

> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1rx8r2/go_binary_sizes_are_growing_out_of_control/ 
> 
> 
> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1rvltx/scala_1_would_not_program_again/#new 
> 
> 
> 
> Andrei

I find this particularly interesting.   Where is the interest in Scala being generated compared to D?

https://www.ohloh.net/languages/compare?measure=commits&percent=true&l0=scala&l1=dmd&l2=haskell&l3=-1&l4=-1&commit=Update 


-Shammah

On 12/2/13 6:49 PM, Shammah Chancellor wrote:
> On 2013-12-03 00:36:28 +0000, Andrei Alexandrescu said:
>
>> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1rx8r2/go_binary_sizes_are_growing_out_of_control/
>>
>>
>> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1rvltx/scala_1_would_not_program_again/#new
>>
>>
>>
>> Andrei
>
> I find this particularly interesting.   Where is the interest in Scala
> being generated compared to D?
>
> https://www.ohloh.net/languages/compare?measure=commits&percent=true&l0=scala&l1=dmd&l2=haskell&l3=-1&l4=-1&commit=Update
>
>
> -Shammah

The graph confirms what I believed - Scala is much more popular than D.

Odersky's response and the subsequent thread are interesting, too: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/scala-debate/153H3Ya4Nxk


Andrei

On Tuesday, 3 December 2013 at 00:36:32 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1rvltx/scala_1_would_not_program_again/#new

I think he might not have liked D either:

> This leads to ridiculous decisions such as using ~ to glue handlers together in the flexible DSL offered by spray

;-)

On 2013-12-03 03:01:12 +0000, Andrei Alexandrescu said:

> On 12/2/13 6:49 PM, Shammah Chancellor wrote:
>> On 2013-12-03 00:36:28 +0000, Andrei Alexandrescu said:
>> 
>>> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1rx8r2/go_binary_sizes_are_growing_out_of_control/ 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1rvltx/scala_1_would_not_program_again/#new 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Andrei
>> 
>> I find this particularly interesting.   Where is the interest in Scala
>> being generated compared to D?
>> 
>> https://www.ohloh.net/languages/compare?measure=commits&percent=true&l0=scala&l1=dmd&l2=haskell&l3=-1&l4=-1&commit=Update 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -Shammah
> 
> The graph confirms what I believed - Scala is much more popular than D.
> 
> Odersky's response and the subsequent thread are interesting, too: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/scala-debate/153H3Ya4Nxk 
> 
> 
> Andrei


I don't understand it at all though.  I've been using D (off and on) since around 0.47.   It's a fanastic language much better than Scala.   Props to Walter, and you.    There are some rough edges, but I argue about them on this forum, and for the most part many of the things that I dislike, or want, have been added or changed in an acceptable way over the last 10 years.       I want to see this language succeed.  I tell everyone I know about it.

I burned out on D for awhile ago, but I've always poked my head in here a couple times a year, and am now using it for a fairly large project.  The reason I kept having to abandon it in the past was due to blocking compiler bugs with templates & CTFE, but with the new bugzilla I find that the bugs I submit are generally noted and fixed in a reasonable amount of time now.   I like that the community is more open now.  There are some beasts who fix bugs really quickly in the frontend.

rant/
With that said, I am finding though that a lot of the documentation on the website is not maintained well by the community.   There are a lot of references to deprecated features, or things that don't work.   E.G. scope'd calls allocation

scope Foo bar = new Foo;  is all over the documentation.  I've come to find out this is deprecated?

Or this message from 2012: http://forum.dlang.org/thread/20120411014440.GA12737@quickfur.ath.cx

The hash-map doc still makes reference to opHash (http://dlang.org/hash-map.html).  Which bit me when I copied and pasted.
/rant

I will try to do my part on updating these things.

-Shammah

On Tuesday, 3 December 2013 at 03:06:20 UTC, Luís Marques wrote:
> On Tuesday, 3 December 2013 at 00:36:32 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
>> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1rvltx/scala_1_would_not_program_again/#new
>
> I think he might not have liked D either:
>
>> This leads to ridiculous decisions such as using ~ to glue handlers together in the flexible DSL offered by spray
>
> ;-)

I don't think this author is used to working with strongly-typed languages or languages with lower-level features:

"And while I’m on the topic, thanks for making me care about the difference between long and int, again. It’s been far too long since I wrote C."

I think he might've had a lot of the same criticisms for D as he did for Scala (save the build times. D's a real winner there).

On Tuesday, 3 December 2013 at 05:54:22 UTC, Meta wrote:
> On Tuesday, 3 December 2013 at 03:06:20 UTC, Luís Marques wrote:
>> On Tuesday, 3 December 2013 at 00:36:32 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
>>> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1rvltx/scala_1_would_not_program_again/#new
>>
>> I think he might not have liked D either:
>>
>>> This leads to ridiculous decisions such as using ~ to glue handlers together in the flexible DSL offered by spray
>>
>> ;-)
>
> I don't think this author is used to working with strongly-typed languages or languages with lower-level features:
>
> "And while I’m on the topic, thanks for making me care about the difference between long and int, again. It’s been far too long since I wrote C."

The main issue is that many seem to think very simple languages are the way to go, until they need to tackle complex problems and end up modeling manuly what other languages offer for free.

Like code generation tools in Go to overcome templates, or crazy macros in C to support OOP.


>
> I think he might've had a lot of the same criticisms for D as he did for Scala (save the build times. D's a real winner there).

Most languages with module support should provide pretty good compile times, C and C++ compilers are good example on how not to do it.

Just look at the compiler improvements in Objective-C, now with initial module support as of Maverick.

Sadly plain C and C++ compilers are what most young developers know as AOT compilers, hence the spread of slow compilation message.

--
Paulo

> The main issue is that many seem to think very simple languages are the way to go, until they need to tackle complex problems and end up modeling manuly what other languages offer for free.
>
> Like code generation tools in Go to overcome templates, or crazy macros in C to support OOP.

This can't be repeated enough. The complexity doesn't go away, it just moves into the implementation of the current application. Which brings to mind:

"Any sufficiently complicated C or Fortran program contains an ad hoc, informally-specified, bug-ridden, slow implementation of half of Common Lisp."

Replace Common Lisp with any other language that lets you get work done, and there you go.

Atila

Andrei Alexandrescu:

> Odersky's response and the subsequent thread are interesting, too: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/scala-debate/153H3Ya4Nxk

An interesting idea:

Martin O.:
>we should do something about operators. I like James Ward's idea to mandate an alphabetic alias for every operator - at least people would know how to pronounce them then.<

Bye,
bearophile

On Tuesday, 3 December 2013 at 12:18:32 UTC, bearophile wrote:
> Andrei Alexandrescu:
>
>> Odersky's response and the subsequent thread are interesting, too: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/scala-debate/153H3Ya4Nxk
>
> An interesting idea:
>
> Martin O.:
>>we should do something about operators. I like James Ward's idea to mandate an alphabetic alias for every operator - at least people would know how to pronounce them then.<
>
> Bye,
> bearophile

Does scala have arbitrary operators like Haskell? Looks useless in D. If you have an operator '+' that should not be pronounced 'plus' you are doing it wrong.