On 5/14/23 23:23, Theo wrote:

> ok. Now I'm motivated. No IVY is even needed.

Ha ha! But IVY did that. :o)

Ali

On Monday, 15 May 2023 at 06:27:44 UTC, Ali Çehreli wrote:
> On 5/14/23 23:23, Theo wrote:
>
>> ok. Now I'm motivated. No IVY is even needed.
>
> Ha ha! But IVY did that. :o)
>
> Ali

I'm going to propose my own theory of motivation:

THEO -> the THEory of Options.

This will motivate me to use D more, because now I can invoke an option that is aligned to the problem I'm trying to solve.

DLF can hire me for further consulations.

On Monday, 15 May 2023 at 06:23:28 UTC, Theo wrote:
> On Monday, 15 May 2023 at 02:59:34 UTC, Mike Parker wrote:
>>
>> ..
>
> If you want to boost my dopamine levels, you can do that much more easily than trying to explain IVY to me.
>
> Just announce D3 (with the following 2 features).
>

Unfortunately unlikely it is working like that..

D3 is already announced - it will be shipped right after all bugs of D2 will be fixed

On 5/14/23 23:35, Theo wrote:

> aligned to the problem I'm trying to solve.

I am ALİgned at birth! :o) (Seriously, one of the tools I wrote is named 'aligner', not at all coincidentally.)

> DLF can hire me for further consulations.

Where do I sign? ;)

Ali

On 15.05.23 08:24, Ali Çehreli wrote:
> On 5/14/23 22:49, ag0aep6g wrote:
> 
>  > Why is it impossible for you to explain IVY in a forum post?
> 
> Do you remember how many sessions it took for Mike and others to understand how IVY could help?

It might have taken them long to understand how IVY helps, but Mike also said that it's "simple". So the basics should fit into a forum post, no? Just give us the core idea, or an outline of the program, something. If we don't see immediately how it helps, there can be follow up.

>  > Why does it
>  > need one-to-one chats to do that?
> 
> I don't know. Some human things are just like that.

Nonsense. You might not be able to teach me to dance over e-mail, but you can give me an idea of what dancing is.

Suppose we are in a one-on-one chat about IVY, what would be the first thing you say to me? By refusing to elaborate in a meaningful way you guys are just making it seem super weird. As I said, you're not making me excited for it, you're making me suspicious of it.

>  > I'm told my friends
>  > can't come with,
> 
> There is something wrong here.
> 
>  > Am I being
>  > recruited into a cult?
> 
> That exact joke was made... by me! :)

So you see where I'm coming from. Except you then got an answer that satisfied you, I presume. I didn't.

>  > I would love to read about IVY. Here. I am not interested in personal
>  > chats with you.
> 
> Somehow that sounds hurtful.

Yeah, I'm not exactly trying to hide my resentment towards you guys. I don't have anything against you in particular, Ali, but since you've come to interject here you might feel some of my negative emotions coming in your general direction.

[...]
>  > motivate me to push D to
>  > excellence?
> 
> Erm? Isn't this all about exactly that? And you want it as you insist on trying to kill excitement?

I get that Mike is trying to spark excitement. I don't think the IVY posts are doing a good job at that. I'm telling you it has the opposite effect on me.

Mike: "Be excited about IVY!"
Others: "Yay! IVY! Woo!"
Other others: "What is IVY? Kinda sounds like hot air."
Mike: "It's not hot air. It's great!"
Me: "You didn't answer the question there. Still sounds like hot air to me."
You: "Don't be such a buzzkill."

Maybe I'm just a grinch trying to steal your IVY Christmas. But I don't believe that being excitable about nothing is a desirable trait for a programmer. You should not be selecting for that.

>  > For this contributor here, IVY has achieved one thing so far: It put
>  > another brick in the wall between D's leadership and me.
> 
> I don't think it was IVY that did that.

Oh, but it did. The wall already had a good number of bricks, of course. But the IVY hype attempt and the poor reaction to negative feedback is adding one more.

>  > Meanwhile, the bug I mentioned in that post is still open.
>  >
>  > If you want to use Agile, or Waterfall, or IVY, or whatever, go ahead.
>  > But it better help get bugs fixed. Otherwise, it's a waste of time.
> 
> Time can be wasted in multitude of ways.

I guess that's supposed to mean that I'm wasting time. And I guess that's true in a way. I should probably just walk away from D. But calling out Mike's non-answers felt right and still does. I regret nothing! :P

On 15.05.23 08:15, Ali Çehreli wrote:
> On 5/14/23 13:09, ag0aep6g wrote:
> 
>  > The impression I got so far is that IVY is a whole
>  > lot of hot air.
> 
> It may or may not be. What I know about motivation is, once you find a person excited about something, the last thing you want to do is try to convince them that they shouldn't be.

Mike is not some random excited contributor that I'm telling to stop being happy. He's the one telling us to be excited about IVY without giving out any meaningful information about it. I'm not being mean to him by calling that out.

I might be being a little mean to him in the way I choose to express that, but that's what you get when you throw PR nothingburgers at me.

>  > I have to assume that you don't tell us what IVY actually means, because
>  > telling people what IVY means is Ucora's product.
> 
> Wrong assumption.

Then I don't understand why we can't have a more substantial description of what IVY is. What did you guys do every Friday for 14 weeks?

[...]
>  > What does it cost?
> 
> Hiç.

Je suis désolé, mais je ne parle pas français.

On 15.05.23 13:59, Dennis wrote:
> IVY stands for "Ideal Vision of Yourself". There's an IVY statement for the vision of the organization, and personal IVY statements that characterize ambitions of contributors. They take the form "To become [...] by [...] so that [...]". After creating/discovering these statements, you assign tasks with them in mind, so people work on things they are intrinsically motivated to do (though there will still be "cleaning the kitchen" work that's not fun for anyone but has to be done).

Thank you.

So it's kinda like the "Where do you see yourself in five years?" question. But I'm sure IVY is much more sophisticated ;)

On Monday, 15 May 2023 at 12:19:26 UTC, ag0aep6g wrote:
> On 15.05.23 13:59, Dennis wrote:
>> IVY stands for "Ideal Vision of Yourself". There's an IVY statement for the vision of the organization, and personal IVY statements that characterize ambitions of contributors. They take the form "To become [...] by [...] so that [...]". After creating/discovering these statements, you assign tasks with them in mind, so people work on things they are intrinsically motivated to do (though there will still be "cleaning the kitchen" work that's not fun for anyone but has to be done).
>
> Thank you.
>
> So it's kinda like the "Where do you see yourself in five years?" question. But I'm sure IVY is much more sophisticated ;)

LOL it went from "hot air" to "much more sophisticated" very quickly.