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Microsoft Project: Verona
Dec 04
RazvanN
4 days ago
Kagamin
3 days ago
Paulo Pinto
2 days ago
Paulo Pinto
3 days ago
IGotD-
2 days ago
Paulo Pinto
2 days ago
IGotD-
2 days ago
Paulo Pinto
December 04
Hello everyone,

It seems that Microsoft is searching for solutions on migrating their code to a more memory safe solution [1]. The good news is that it seems that big companies are starting to look more into memory safe languages; the bad news is they are looking into Rust.

Cheers,
RazvanN

[1] https://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-were-creating-a-new-rust-based-programming-language-for-secure-coding/
December 04
On 04/12/2019 10:40 PM, RazvanN wrote:
> Hello everyone,
> 
> It seems that Microsoft is searching for solutions on migrating their code to a more memory safe solution [1]. The good news is that it seems that big companies are starting to look more into memory safe languages; the bad news is they are looking into Rust.
> 
> Cheers,
> RazvanN
> 
> [1] https://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-were-creating-a-new-rust-based-programming-language-for-secure-coding/ 

The work they are doing is not for a burrow checker. They are doing something quite different (and no Rust has nothing to do with this toy).

https://forum.dlang.org/post/gxxktppyqdrocqdbsnzb@forum.dlang.org

4 days ago
On Wednesday, 4 December 2019 at 09:40:01 UTC, RazvanN wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
> It seems that Microsoft is searching for solutions on migrating their code to a more memory safe solution [1]. The good news is that it seems that big companies are starting to look more into memory safe languages; the bad news is they are looking into Rust.

They already tried rust in july for the same purpose https://msrc-blog.microsoft.com/2019/07/16/a-proactive-approach-to-more-secure-code/
But this is a new language.
3 days ago
On Friday, 6 December 2019 at 19:16:12 UTC, Kagamin wrote:
> On Wednesday, 4 December 2019 at 09:40:01 UTC, RazvanN wrote:
>> Hello everyone,
>>
>> It seems that Microsoft is searching for solutions on migrating their code to a more memory safe solution [1]. The good news is that it seems that big companies are starting to look more into memory safe languages; the bad news is they are looking into Rust.
>
> They already tried rust in july for the same purpose https://msrc-blog.microsoft.com/2019/07/16/a-proactive-approach-to-more-secure-code/
> But this is a new language.

They have done more than just trying, Rust now ships in Microsoft products (Azure IoT and VScode) and they are part of the companies meeting the Rust core team regarding how to foster adoption among enterprises.

https://gist.github.com/rylev/0e3c3895dcb40b6a1c1cf8c427c01b5e

3 days ago
On Saturday, 7 December 2019 at 14:53:41 UTC, Paulo Pinto wrote:
> They have done more than just trying, Rust now ships in Microsoft products (Azure IoT and VScode) and they are part of the companies meeting the Rust core team regarding how to foster adoption among enterprises.
>
> https://gist.github.com/rylev/0e3c3895dcb40b6a1c1cf8c427c01b5e

That is interesting. It is also a bit telling that MS repr. raised two concerns:
- do we know what's going into the compiler?
- do we know what changes are going in?

If MS actually picks it up more than catering to customers... then maybe it will become another C#... Dunno. I don't think MS will pick it up, as I think they like to be in control.

I also found this discussion on the Rust forum about what holds Rust back interesting:

https://users.rust-lang.org/t/rust-2020-growth/34956

3 days ago
On Saturday, 7 December 2019 at 18:11:15 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote:
> If MS actually picks it up more than catering to customers... then maybe it will become another C#... Dunno. I don't think MS will pick it up, as I think they like to be in control.

They are experimenting with it when rewriting one component in the windows code base:

https://msrc-blog.microsoft.com/2019/11/07/using-rust-in-windows/

So, that is a beginning of something, if it works out for them. I guess?

3 days ago
On Saturday, 7 December 2019 at 14:53:41 UTC, Paulo Pinto wrote:
>
> They have done more than just trying, Rust now ships in Microsoft products (Azure IoT and VScode) and they are part of the companies meeting the Rust core team regarding how to foster adoption among enterprises.
>
> https://gist.github.com/rylev/0e3c3895dcb40b6a1c1cf8c427c01b5e

I wonder why Microsoft never tinkered with D for this purpose. Was it the garbage collector that made them avoid D after all these years? However Rust comes along and Microsoft is suddenly interested.

I'm interested what Microsoft does with Verona. In general Microsoft are good at creating more ergonomic languages. Rust is sometimes a bit clunky to use at some points and the question if Microsoft can make a more user friendly language than Rust.
2 days ago
On Saturday, 7 December 2019 at 18:23:09 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote:
> On Saturday, 7 December 2019 at 18:11:15 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote:
>> If MS actually picks it up more than catering to customers... then maybe it will become another C#... Dunno. I don't think MS will pick it up, as I think they like to be in control.
>
> They are experimenting with it when rewriting one component in the windows code base:
>
> https://msrc-blog.microsoft.com/2019/11/07/using-rust-in-windows/
>
> So, that is a beginning of something, if it works out for them. I guess?

As mentioned, Azure IoT and VSCode are already shipping with Rust code.

If you do any kind of regular expression search on VSCode, that is powered by ripgrep.

Likewise if you deploy any Azure IoT device into the wild, the layer that talks between the hardware and .NET layer is powered by Rust, and the cloud part is powered by Actix.

More significantly, Kenny Kerr, which started the project to create a UWP projection in standard C++ instead of C++/CX, then joined Microsoft and ended up leading the effort to C++/WinRT, now the oficial replacement for C++/CX, has started a similar project for Rust.

https://kennykerr.ca/2019/11/05/rust/

So yes, this looks like the beginning of something.
2 days ago
On Sunday, 8 December 2019 at 10:36:50 UTC, IGotD- wrote:
> On Saturday, 7 December 2019 at 14:53:41 UTC, Paulo Pinto wrote:
>>
>> They have done more than just trying, Rust now ships in Microsoft products (Azure IoT and VScode) and they are part of the companies meeting the Rust core team regarding how to foster adoption among enterprises.
>>
>> https://gist.github.com/rylev/0e3c3895dcb40b6a1c1cf8c427c01b5e
>
> I wonder why Microsoft never tinkered with D for this purpose. Was it the garbage collector that made them avoid D after all these years? However Rust comes along and Microsoft is suddenly interested.
>
> I'm interested what Microsoft does with Verona. In general Microsoft are good at creating more ergonomic languages. Rust is sometimes a bit clunky to use at some points and the question if Microsoft can make a more user friendly language than Rust.

I imagine that was indeed the case, if you look between the lines from Joe Duffy's presentations on Midori.

https://www.infoq.com/presentations/csharp-systems-programming/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVm938gMWl0

At the end of his Rust keynote, he mentions that even after being showed how well it worked, Windows Dev team was quite sceptical of it.

However as per https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/project/singularity/ , Midori used to power the natural language search service for the West Coast and Asia. Which I imagine was a way to stress test it.

Additionally, now with WinUI ongoing efforts they decided to convert several of the .NET Native components into C++. Although this doesn't matter that much, because at the end of the day they are all based on COM, it appears (from some BUILD talks) that it is the way to convince shops still using MFC/ATL to eventually move into WinUI.

So in spite of all the security issues regarding C and C++, they keep on using them, although more constrained (Azure Sphere, C++ Core Guidelines, lifetime static analysis), because there is a large set of their customers that won't do .NET no matter what.

Also note that since C# 7, .NET incorporated many of Midori lessons, and now many additional scenarios for low level coding are covered, almost at the same level as D.

Still for some, GC has the same effect as garlic for vampires, and hence Rust and now Verona.

2 days ago
On Sunday, 8 December 2019 at 10:36:50 UTC, IGotD- wrote:
> I wonder why Microsoft never tinkered with D for this purpose. Was it the garbage collector that made them avoid D after all these years?

Probably, if D was on the radar, but you only need to go a few years back to see a MS that seemed to want to evolve C# to a system programming language, and cut back on development of their own C++ compiler (and had ditched newer versions of C). So being open to outside tech is a new thing for MS...

The MS leadership is probably coming to an understanding that business applications will move to the cloud/web and that the Windows hegemony is over. So, they try to gain back developer trust that was lost in the 90s by demonstrating a friendly relationship to open source? I think the attitude at the top has changed and therefore people further down the hierarchy feel more encouraged to think outside the MS box?

Since Microsoft internally has had issues with memory safety then Rust's main selling point probably made it easier to catch the ears of those who make decisions at MS?

But you could also think about it in terms of recruiting.  If the kind of developers they want are drawn to Rust, then why not follow the crowd?

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