On Mon, 08 Sep 2014 15:09:26 +0000
Dicebot via Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d@puremagic.com> wrote:

> Bullshit. Any kind of forking wastes most valuable resource open source world can possibly have - developer attention.
if particular developer so annoyed by mainline that he decided to fork the project, this doesn't remove *any* resources from mainline. it's the same BS as "lost profits" that copyright holders "calculating".

what is better: annoyed developer that quits the project or annoyed developer that forks the project? mainline can get bugfixes and enhancements from the fork, for example, but it's impossible to get bugfixes and enhancements from nothing.

On Monday, 8 September 2014 at 15:09:27 UTC, Dicebot wrote:
> It is not about D community but about yourself. Do _you_ want to be viewed as a valuable member of community? Do _you_ want to receive on topic responses to your threads?

I only want to receive a response on this thread from community members who are willing to share their patches! Your contribution to this thread is counter productive.

Ketmar is a noble example that I'd encourage others to follow. More people like him would bring D out of stagnation.

> If answer is yes, you will consider people expectation as much as a license.

No, I don't consider other people's disparage expectations on this topic. I consider the orignal author's choice of license. I am sure he considered the licensing-options and stands for his own choice. If he does not, then an explanation from the original author is in place.

>> We add to the eco system. We don't detract from it.
>
> Bullshit. Any kind of forking wastes most valuable resource open source world can possibly have - developer attention.

Uhm, no. I would not use D in it's current incarnation so I need to modify it. Ketmar and I are not DMD developers. We are currently digging into the code base. Modifying the parser is a good way to learn the AST. Maybe we one day will become DMD developers, but this attitude you and others are exposing in this thread and the bug-report-patch thread aint sexy. It's a turn off.

What you are doing is telling prospective contributors that this community is about cohesive military discipline. Totalitarian regimes tend to run into trouble. I most definitely will never join a cult that expose it as an ideal. I'm not one of your lieutenants. Sorry.

On 09/08/2014 10:51 AM, "Ola Fosheim =?UTF-8?B?R3LDuHN0YWQi?= <ola.fosheim.grostad+dlang@gmail.com>" wrote:
>
> What kind of syntactical sugar do you feel is missing in D?

int square(int x)=>x*x;

On Mon, 08 Sep 2014 17:25:07 +0200
Timon Gehr via Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d@puremagic.com> wrote:

> int square(int x)=>x*x;
noted.

On Monday, 8 September 2014 at 08:51:10 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote:

> I'm currently working on the following mods (not thoroughly tested yet):

> What kind of syntactical sugar do you feel is missing in D?

//inclusive range
in : a ... b
out: a .. (b+1)

//range as start/length
in : a .$. b
out: a .. (a+b)

Not sure if this was implemented or not yet:

in: typename[$] x
out: typename[x.length] x //well, kind of

But, I agree, I am not fan of forking D now. But I have nothing against it.

Pretty sure that D started as a kind of fork of C or C++ at some point...

On Monday, 8 September 2014 at 15:09:27 UTC, Dicebot wrote:
> Bullshit. Any kind of forking wastes most valuable resource open source world can possibly have - developer attention. In limited form it is compensated by ecnouraged competition and breaking possible stagantion. When it becomes casual it is a single biggest killer of all open source projects.

Yet it is part of the freedom of open source, as Ola and ketmar have pointed out.  In any case, trading syntax patches with each other and experimenting with different dialects, which is all they've said they're doing so far, is far from a full fork.  I see no reason for you to come down so hard on such experimentation.

On Mon, 08 Sep 2014 16:02:34 +0000
Joakim via Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d@puremagic.com> wrote:

> In any case, trading syntax patches with each other and experimenting with different dialects, which is all they've said they're doing so far, is far from a full fork.
and i'm clearly stated that i'm not planning to fork D in the nearest future (and Ola too, i believe).

OP just asked what games other playing, to avoid duplicate work. that wasn't "let's fork D!" that wasn't "call to arms: let's push this into mainline!"

and how we supposed to learn compiler internals without playing such small silly games? when someone adds some syntactic sugar, or new warning, or something like, it's a moment of "wow! i can into compiler writing too!" poking around with compiler source is a great way to learn.

maybe just make "D.experiments" newsgroup for such talks, so newcomers will not be confused by discussion about some bizarre feature in "D.general"? this way we can make questions like OP's one less controversial, 'cause people will immediately see that this is not a thread about "let's include this feature in D NOW!"

Am Mon, 08 Sep 2014 15:22:03 +0000
schrieb "Ola Fosheim Grøstad"
<ola.fosheim.grostad+dlang@gmail.com>:

> On Monday, 8 September 2014 at 15:09:27 UTC, Dicebot wrote:
> > It is not about D community but about yourself. Do _you_ want to be viewed as a valuable member of community? Do _you_ want to receive on topic responses to your threads?
> 
> I only want to receive a response on this thread from community members who are willing to share their patches! Your contribution to this thread is counter productive.
> 
> Ketmar is a noble example that I'd encourage others to follow. More people like him would bring D out of stagnation.
> 
> > If answer is yes, you will consider people expectation as much as a license.
> 
> No, I don't consider other people's disparage expectations on this topic. I consider the orignal author's choice of license. I am sure he considered the licensing-options and stands for his own choice. If he does not, then an explanation from the original author is in place.
> 
> >> We add to the eco system. We don't detract from it.
> >
> > Bullshit. Any kind of forking wastes most valuable resource open source world can possibly have - developer attention.
> 
> Uhm, no. I would not use D in it's current incarnation so I need to modify it. Ketmar and I are not DMD developers. We are currently digging into the code base. Modifying the parser is a good way to learn the AST. Maybe we one day will become DMD developers, but this attitude you and others are exposing in this thread and the bug-report-patch thread aint sexy. It's a turn off.
> 
> What you are doing is telling prospective contributors that this community is about cohesive military discipline. Totalitarian regimes tend to run into trouble. I most definitely will never join a cult that expose it as an ideal. I'm not one of your lieutenants. Sorry.

And now we all calm down a little, ok? The D community is as diverse as the language and even if three people yell in the same tone, it doesn't mean everyone else believes the same.

On topic: Adding more ways to instantiate templates, I see no
value in. It only causes confusion for the reader.
Short syntax for declaring auto/const/immutable variables is
nice, because it probably saves typing and variable names are
all left aligned. You might want to check if you can really
fulfill the goal. E.g. sometimes your expression evaluates to
something const which you cannot store in an immutable
variable. Whereas a const variable can receive an immutable.
How do you go about pointers? I.e. Does :== declare an
immutable(char)[] or an immutable(char[])?
New Unicode operators. Personally I find them sexy, because √
is a short, well known operator. But you may find people that
still require ASCII for source code. Also this specific
rewrite requires std.math to be imported, and like ^^ it will
cause bewildered looks when something breaks for a built-in
operator. So if you want to push this make it an operator
that is understood by the front-end like "!" or "~". Also you
might want to consider adding .opSqrt for consistency.
For array length we already have .length and .opDollar. Even
more ways to express the length? Granted it is one of the
most common properties you ask for in D code, but #arr looks
very unusual. Well, it is your fork I'd say. If you ever make
any pull requests be sure to propose one feature at a time, D
is already short on reviewers that understand the effects of
the code changes. And be sure to document the corner cases
you dealt with, especially with the :== operator.

-- 
Marco

Am Mon, 8 Sep 2014 18:34:10 +0300
schrieb ketmar via Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d@puremagic.com>:

> On Mon, 08 Sep 2014 17:25:07 +0200
> Timon Gehr via Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d@puremagic.com> wrote:
> 
> > int square(int x)=>x*x;
> noted.

To clarify: There is x^^2, but the implementation uses pow(x,2) and presumably yields a "real" result instead of an integer. So in that case the correct solution would be to special case int^^int.

-- 
Marco

On Monday, 8 September 2014 at 14:09:15 UTC, Dicebot wrote:
> With many freedoms come many responsibilities. The fact that you can fork the syntax and no one sue you for it (or actively try to stop you from doing it) does not mean that it won't harm your public image and overall attitude from some of community members. I think http://xkcd.com/1357/ fits the spirit here quite nicely.

Jesus, calm down. It's open source software, he can do what he wants with it as long as the license is obeyed. If he wants to fork it and experiment, let him.