On Saturday, 9 November 2013 at 04:16:57 UTC, Timothee Cour wrote:
> french as well (although living in US).

+1 !

On Saturday, 9 November 2013 at 07:19:47 UTC, Raphaël Jakse wrote:
> As for finding time itself, I guess I can manage to schedule the translation of one chapter or the half of a big chapter a week. The publication of what is already translated would be extremely motivating.
>
> I would be glad to see this translation published on dlang-fr.org. Great initiative Théo ! The creation of dlang-fr could be a major event for the French D community. Bravo!
>
> What is needed for this translation to be published is some proofreading. So far, I have only been translating, proofreading has not be done.
>
> Theo, we need to get in touch to organize the proofreading and the publication of the translation through dlang-fr, if you are okay.

It would be great to publish your work on dlang-fr !
Please take contact via email, the forum ( or jabber ) so that we can talk about it.

Le 09/11/2013 09:53, matovitch a écrit :
> On Saturday, 9 November 2013 at 08:32:24 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
>> On Friday, November 08, 2013 23:51:16 Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
>>> On 11/8/13 11:43 PM, Raphaël Jakse wrote:
>>> > Le 09/11/2013 08:21, John J a écrit :
>>> >> On 11/09/2013 01:40 AM, Philippe Sigaud wrote:
>>> >>> I don't even know how to say 'template' in French.
>>> >> >> Do they really need to translate keywords like 'template' >>
>>> into French,
>>> >> for that matter into any other language?
>>> > > I've still not translated the chapter about template so I > have not
>>> > decided anything yet.
>>> > > My guideline is to translate everything (I hate >
>>> speaking/reading about
>>> > computer science with people who use three English works by > French
>>> > sentance) and give the English counterpart the first time to > be
>>> able to
>>> > find help in the English world.
>>> > > Also, using French words when speaking about computer > science
>>> helps
>>> > speaking about computer science with people who are not into > it, I'm
>>> > really attached to this.
>>> > > The French translation for template is "modèle", I think > I'll
>>> use this
>>> > one. I'm okay with also giving the English "template" in my >
>>> translation,
>>> > but not use it (If somebody disagrees, I'm open to talk)
>>> > > I had a really hard time translating "slice". I opted for >
>>> "tranche".
>>>
>>> morceau?
>>
>> I suppose that that would work, but I believe that tranche would be
>> the more
>> direct translation (certainly, it's what's used when talking about
>> slices of
>> bread). However, I don't know if there's another word that happens to
>> have
>> more accurate connotations in this case.
>>
>> Given French's more limited vocabulary and resistance to adding new
>> words,
>> translating technical terms has got to be a royal pain (and then
>> L'Académie
>> Française gets ticked when folks use English words for new stuff). I
>> had my
>> desktop in French for a while at one point, which definitely improved my
>> vocabulary. For better or worse, a lot of technical words seem to get
>> translated very literally, which gets interesting sometimes
>> (particularly when
>> there doesn't seem to really be a direct translation available). But I
>> expect
>> that it's often the same in other languages, though maybe some of them
>> are
>> more open to just using the English word.
>>
>> - Jonathan M Davis
>
> "Intervalle" ?
> What about the range translation ?

I think the translation for "range" in French is "intervalle". It is what I chose for Ali's book.

tranche seems more undertandable to me in this context than "morceau", though "morceau" is an interesting option I didn't consider :-).

As for importing new words from English, I'm all into it as far as the term is Frenchified and its pronounciation adapted, if no word in French is suitable. French people are bad at pronouncing English, and an English word that hasn't been adopted widely as is feels weird to me.
I don't know if French has a more limited vocabulary, I don't think so. But creation of new words can be less natural in some situations because we don't have such mechanisms as taking a noun and use it as a verb (like "google"). Verbize nouns (i.e. adding a suitable suffix) could be done but it seems less usual in French than in English.

Some technical words have their dedicated French translation but the English word is more used as the academic translation seems really too weird for many people and make people laugh or not undertand when they are used. This is the case for "bitoduc", which is a translation of pipeline. French people rather use "pipeline", with the English pronounciation or with a Frenchified pronounciation.

"bitoduc" seems to be a numeric analogy to "aqueduc" (a tube, pipe that transports water), "gazoduc" (for gas) or "oleoduc" (for petrol) but "bitoduc" sounds laughable for many people (likely because "bite", wich sound the same as "bit", is a bad word meaning "dick"). "Pipeline" is really a French word, so people use it for translating "pipeline" in computer science.

I recently discovered http://bitoduc.fr/ for suggestions when translating technical word. Some are great, some tend to make people laugh or look weird.


The Office québécois de la langue française is the Quebec counterpart of the Académie Française and in my humble opinion, is playing a great role in the development of the French language. They notably introduced "courriel" for "e-mail", "pourriel" for "spam", "clavarder" ("clavier" + "bavarder") for chat, but French people just tend to use the English word, or don't even know the existence of the French word (this is the case for "clavarder", which most French seem to find original, beautiful or amusing but don't use. We use "chat", "tchat" or sometimes "discuter sur Internet"). I don't know how French speaking Canadian use these words, I think they tend to use less anglicisms and be more attached to the French language than French people themselves. They even replaced the "Stop" sign on roads by a "Arrêt" sign on roads, which French people didn't do. However, they also have their own anglicisms (e.g. they translate "regular" into "régulier", which has a different meaning in French).

On Saturday, 9 November 2013 at 08:32:24 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
> On Friday, November 08, 2013 23:51:16 Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
>> On 11/8/13 11:43 PM, Raphaël Jakse wrote:
>> > I had a really hard time translating "slice". I opted for "tranche".
>> 
>> morceau?
>
> I suppose that that would work, but I believe that tranche would be the more
> direct translation (certainly, it's what's used when talking about slices of
> bread). However, I don't know if there's another word that happens to have
> more accurate connotations in this case.
>
> - Jonathan M Davis

French myself too, but I consider myself part of the English community.

My personal feeling is that when it comes to translating technical jargon, it is sometimes best to just keep the original word, explain/learn what it means, and stick with that.

This is because the "words" are already loaded with more meaning than what basic English gives them, for example, "range"/"interval". Or "aggregate" or what not. All words with very specific meanings in the context of a specific *programming* language, that transcends the English language itself.

If you "translate" those words, you are actually creating new words, which will require people to associate a new meaning to said word, when the original English word was perfectly fine for it.

The japanese seemed good at doing these kind of things when I was there, talking about things like "regista", or whatnot.

On the contrary, the French seem to like *everything* to get translated, to the point where the French themselves get confused by the double standard. For example, for "stack"/"heap", the French have "tas"/"pile". I'm French myself, and I can never remember which is which! Why couldn't they just keep "stack"/"heap"?

That's what I feel like anyways. Explaining things in your local language is fine, but if technical words get translated, oftentimes, you lose more from the loss of the context specific definition, then the gain from replacing it with a word in your own language, but with no added definition.

On Saturday, 9 November 2013 at 08:12:45 UTC, matovitch wrote:

> I like better "tranche". "Template" is commonly used for C++. If there is any translation project, please make a github repo and give us the link. I didn't do much D and some notions remains fuzzy in my head (like UDAs)...this could be a motivation to "d"ive into the (not so) numerous english ressources.

There's a glossary for abbreviations like these. Unfortunately UDA is not included:

http://dlang.org/glossary.html

--
/Jacob Carlborg

On Saturday, 9 November 2013 at 07:43:21 UTC, Raphaël Jakse wrote:

> I've still not translated the chapter about template so I have not decided anything yet.
>
> My guideline is to translate everything (I hate speaking/reading about computer science with people who use three English works by French sentance) and give the English counterpart the first time to be able to find help in the English world.
>
> Also, using French words when speaking about computer science helps speaking about computer science with people who are not into it, I'm really attached to this.
>
> The French translation for template is "modèle", I think I'll use this one. I'm okay with also giving the English "template" in my translation, but not use it (If somebody disagrees, I'm open to talk)

It sounds strange to translate a keyword. If I put it like this, it would be ok to translate a keyword when talking about it like a topic, i.e. a chapter called "Templates" (Modèle). But when referring to the actual keyword, what one need to write in the code, it seems wrong to translate it. So if you would write something like this:

Templates are ... and the keyword used is "template".

The first "template" would be translate but not the second. Does that make sense.

--
/Jacob Carlborg

Le 09/11/2013 10:56, monarch_dodra a écrit :
> On Saturday, 9 November 2013 at 08:32:24 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
>> On Friday, November 08, 2013 23:51:16 Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
>>> On 11/8/13 11:43 PM, Raphaël Jakse wrote:
>>> > I had a really hard time translating "slice". I opted for > "tranche".
>>>
>>> morceau?
>>
>> I suppose that that would work, but I believe that tranche would be
>> the more
>> direct translation (certainly, it's what's used when talking about
>> slices of
>> bread). However, I don't know if there's another word that happens to
>> have
>> more accurate connotations in this case.
>>
>> - Jonathan M Davis
>
> French myself too, but I consider myself part of the English community.
>
> My personal feeling is that when it comes to translating technical
> jargon, it is sometimes best to just keep the original word,
> explain/learn what it means, and stick with that.
>
> This is because the "words" are already loaded with more meaning than
> what basic English gives them, for example, "range"/"interval". Or
> "aggregate" or what not. All words with very specific meanings in the
> context of a specific *programming* language, that transcends the
> English language itself.
>
> If you "translate" those words, you are actually creating new words,
> which will require people to associate a new meaning to said word, when
> the original English word was perfectly fine for it.
>
> The japanese seemed good at doing these kind of things when I was there,
> talking about things like "regista", or whatnot.
>
> On the contrary, the French seem to like *everything* to get translated,
> to the point where the French themselves get confused by the double
> standard. For example, for "stack"/"heap", the French have "tas"/"pile".
> I'm French myself, and I can never remember which is which! Why couldn't
> they just keep "stack"/"heap"?

Same problem in English, you need to remember the meaning of each word.

More different words are heap and queue, which translate into "pile" and "file" in French, no problem for me in both languages. And I like the use of French word here. French computer science lessons with too much English words would be difficult to follow in my opinion. "pile" and "file" are easy to understand, because we can imagine "a heap of plates" ("une pile d'assiettes") or "une file d'attente" (... a "queue"), where the first in is the first out.

Problem is, most technical term appear in English because technical people speak in English to be understood across the world.
I think each language should get an appropriate translation of these words, and a suitable translation for this new word could be the word itself, with a writing and a pronunciation more "natural" than the direct English word, if the English word didn't existed in the first place or has no translation in other languages. Context is then retrieved when the word is used in a specific domain.

Often, everyday life English words like "slice" were used to refer to a technical concept, and then the usage became familiar in the domain (the "context" is now there). I think all languages can do the same, that's why I think translation instead of just importing the English word is right in this situation.


>
> That's what I feel like anyways. Explaining things in your local
> language is fine, but if technical words get translated, oftentimes, you
> lose more from the loss of the context specific definition, then the
> gain from replacing it with a word in your own language, but with no
> added definition.

Le 09/11/2013 11:13, Jacob Carlborg a écrit :
> On Saturday, 9 November 2013 at 07:43:21 UTC, Raphaël Jakse wrote:
>
>> I've still not translated the chapter about template so I have not
>> decided anything yet.
>>
>> My guideline is to translate everything (I hate speaking/reading about
>> computer science with people who use three English works by French
>> sentance) and give the English counterpart the first time to be able
>> to find help in the English world.
>>
>> Also, using French words when speaking about computer science helps
>> speaking about computer science with people who are not into it, I'm
>> really attached to this.
>>
>> The French translation for template is "modèle", I think I'll use this
>> one. I'm okay with also giving the English "template" in my
>> translation, but not use it (If somebody disagrees, I'm open to talk)
>
> It sounds strange to translate a keyword. If I put it like this, it
> would be ok to translate a keyword when talking about it like a topic,
> i.e. a chapter called "Templates" (Modèle). But when referring to the
> actual keyword, what one need to write in the code, it seems wrong to
> translate it. So if you would write something like this:
>
> Templates are ... and the keyword used is "template".
>
> The first "template" would be translate but not the second. Does that
> make sense.

Yes, it makes sense. I thought about it and got to the same conclusion as you.

I would title the chapter "Les modèles (templates)" with "templates" in italic, or "Les modèles et le mot clé template" with "template" in a monospace font.

keywords are not translated and are writen in a monospace font (or whatever style dedicated for writing code) and concepts, ideas, topic or whatever, get translated.


>
> --
> /Jacob Carlborg

On Saturday, 9 November 2013 at 08:32:24 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote:

> Given French's more limited vocabulary and resistance to adding new words,
> translating technical terms has got to be a royal pain (and then L'Académie
> Française gets ticked when folks use English words for new stuff). I had my
> desktop in French for a while at one point, which definitely improved my
> vocabulary. For better or worse, a lot of technical words seem to get
> translated very literally, which gets interesting sometimes (particularly when
> there doesn't seem to really be a direct translation available). But I expect
> that it's often the same in other languages, though maybe some of them are
> more open to just using the English word.

I can tell you that when I talk about programming or computers in Swedish I use a lot of English words. Many words don't have a good translation and just sound weird. If I would to translate "slice" into Swedish it would probably be "skiva", especially if we're talking about a slice of bread. But if I would say "skiva" when talking about programming to someone else they would probably say "WHAT?" and have no idea what I'm talking about.

I'm using all my software in English. One time I was going to use Photoshop at school and they had the Swedish version. I couldn't find a single thing by looking at the names. Just hoping you're remembering the locations of the buttons and the menus.

--
/Jacob Carlborg

On Saturday, 9 November 2013 at 10:08:13 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
> On Saturday, 9 November 2013 at 08:12:45 UTC, matovitch wrote:
>
>> I like better "tranche". "Template" is commonly used for C++. If there is any translation project, please make a github repo and give us the link. I didn't do much D and some notions remains fuzzy in my head (like UDAs)...this could be a motivation to "d"ive into the (not so) numerous english ressources.
>
> There's a glossary for abbreviations like these. Unfortunately UDA is not included:
>
> http://dlang.org/glossary.html
>
> --
> /Jacob Carlborg

Thanks. I forked the D template tutorial of Philipp Sigaud to start a french translation : https://github.com/matovitch/D-templates-tutorial. Feel free to clone ! :-)

Templates are a strong features of D and I think they deserve to be promoted.