On Monday, 29 December 2014 at 05:43:13 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
>
> Often I'll pipe the pretty-printed debug output to a file, as it can be voluminous, and then actually edit the file to bring out what I need.
>
> Not possible with a debugger.
>

I think it is. Here is a small adjustment to consider for your workflow. Continue instrumenting your code with capability to print things as you like - data structures, etc. Then when you need to debug something, rather than (throw in print, compile, run, diagnose repeat) drop into gdb judiciously and "call print....", examine the output. Need more data do it again with the same executable. The savings is no need to repeatedly build/litter code with prints and you would use the debugger and your current style.

I seriously doubt you would change your style as you appear quite fond of it - clearly it works for you. The point though is others do find value in the debugger and this is one reason. Also, there are pretty printers of data structures for gdb and if you don't like them you could write your own.

> (dmd can have pretty complex relationships between data structures and the path through the code. I might want to look at these fields of a type, but not those fields. Etc. I.e. I routinely build custom debugging aids for particular problems.)

On Thu, 01 Jan 2015 12:55:28 +0000
Gary Willoughby via Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d@puremagic.com> wrote:

> Just because you contribute to D it doesn't give you any authority to get angry at users or:
that's really great. Dicebot wrote a long text explaining that he is not a D dev team representative, he doesn't want to be one and he want his commit right to be taken away so others will stop seeing him as "official person", and then you demand from him to behave like "official person".

that's incredible, really incredible! did you even read his post?

> Users should be put first in all cases, period!
you know what... Dicebot IS USER. and now you oppressing him, doing exatly what you told him not to do.

> I'm seriously considering writing a new blog article for reddit, highlighting the attitudes in this discussion because they are so seriously anti-success.
but please don't forget to give direct link to discussion. 'cause you somehow managed to read the things Dicebot never wrote.

  Regarding debuggers: keep in mind, windows debuggers
are light years ahead of GDB and friends.

  What Linux people refer to as a debugger looks like a stone age
tool to me.

On Fri, 02 Jan 2015 05:12:27 +0000
pops via Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d@puremagic.com> wrote:

>    Regarding debuggers: keep in mind, windows debuggers
> are light years ahead of GDB and friends.
> 
>    What Linux people refer to as a debugger looks like a stone age
> tool to me.

...and we, *nix people, thinking the same... about windows debuggers. so please, don't call the tool you aren't familiar with "stone age tool".

> ...and we, *nix people, thinking the same... about windows debuggers.
> so please, don't call the tool you aren't familiar with "stone age
> tool".

https://anteru.net/2014/12/13/2596/

 Talks about switching from windows to Linux. There are positives, but the debugging is not one of them.

On Fri, 02 Jan 2015 05:49:45 +0000
pops via Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d@puremagic.com> wrote:

>   Talks about switching from windows to Linux. There are
> positives, but the debugging is not one of them.

*nix cultire and windows culture are very different. when "switcher" tries to use his windows habits in *nix world, he found himself frustrated by "inconvenient tools" and such. the same is true for *nix guy trying windows.

i can say that visual studio suxalot. it's one of the worst things i ever used in my life. but you know why? 'cause it's doing everything not in the way i used to.

for windows folks "integration" is "having everything in one big app". for *nix folks "integration" is "having alot of reusable parts that can be combined to create any necessary tool". gdb is such part. using that part alone can be painful.

that's why *nix folks don't like IDEs. they have their vim/emacs, and just extending that to get what they need. so they looking at visual studio, for example, and see very inflexible tool: it doesn't even have built-in scripting language, which is the key component of "integration" as *nix folks see it!

*nix is not windows. windows is not *nix. they are two different cultures. so when you saying that "*nix debugger expirience reminds me of stone age", most *nix folks immediately thinks: "ah, another dumb switcher who cannot understand that not everything in the world is windows". please, don't be one of that dumbs.

Please let it go. There has been said enough to represent views of different parties, and argument for the sake of the argument is counterproductive.

On 1/1/15 2:48 AM, Joakim wrote:
> On Monday, 29 December 2014 at 19:11:04 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
>> On 12/29/14 10:58 AM, Joakim wrote:
>>> It also means more people asking for stuff, then doing nothing to
>>> contribute towards it, as though the D community is their slave labor.
>>
>> If we, the D community, want D to succeed, we must change this
>> attitude. -- Andrei
>
> I was just going to let this go without answering, as it's ambiguous,
> but since Dicebot just said something similar to what I'd have said,
> I'll bite.  What do you mean by this?  That the people asking for stuff
> then doing nothing have to change their attitude or those in the D
> community, like Dicebot and me, who point out that their approach is
> unrealistic should change our attitude?

Heh, I now see how that's ambiguous. I'm saying we need to start owning D issues if we want D to succeed, as opposed to asking people to implement their own suggestions. That means taking feedback from folks like Manu or Dicebot as "things we should work on" as opposed to "if you want it done please do it".

I understand that's counterintuitive but I really think it's the way forward. We need to evolve from a tribe to an organization.

> And regardless of your answer to that question, what do you see as
> "success" for D and how do you plan to get there, given what you know
> now?

Success is like adult content - you know it when you see it :o). I don't think defining it by means of 1-2 simple proxies (downloads, companies using D, etc) is very meaningful but it's clear to me we're not successful yet.

> It's possible that it's already a success for the community, as it
> works well enough for the thousands using and handful contributing to
> it, and they do not see your million-user goal as worth putting effort
> into.

I'm sure most of us hope broader support for D is highly desirable.

> I'll note that I'd like to see D reach a million users, and I'm doing my
> small part by trying to get it on the gigantic Android install base, but
> my desire and single new port doesn't mean much since those will not be
> enough to get D to a million, and I'm not interested in working on
> Windows tooling or some other issues that might get it there.
>
> Similarly, whatever the definition of success is, whether yours or the
> community's, it's meaningless without a plan and a push to get there.  I
> know you can't make people follow your plan, assuming you have one (not
> a dig, you just may not know how to get to a million yet), but you can
> still sketch out some specific efforts that you'd like to enable (more
> user bounties or better ways to get input from commercial users or a
> much-improved GC, which you have said you'd push for in a reddit
> comment) or put out a public agenda/roadmap you'd like to see prioritized.
>
> Without some purposeful steps in the direction of your "success," the D
> community is unlikely to randomly amble along towards where you're
> hoping, at least not in the next couple decades. ;)

I agree, a plan is needed. Walter and I just had a long talk about this. We hope to flesh things out better soon.


Andrei

On 1/1/15 4:55 AM, Gary Willoughby wrote:
> The vast majority of users of D will *never* contribute anything *ever*
> but they will (from time to time) ask for something. Just deal with it.
> Add it to an issue tracker and triage. Users should be put first in all
> cases, period!

I agree. But please, all, let's take the heat out of it. Surely these are things in which reasonable people may disagree. -- Andrei

On 2/01/2015 9:55 p.m., Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
> On 1/1/15 2:48 AM, Joakim wrote:
>> On Monday, 29 December 2014 at 19:11:04 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
>>> On 12/29/14 10:58 AM, Joakim wrote:
>>>> It also means more people asking for stuff, then doing nothing to
>>>> contribute towards it, as though the D community is their slave labor.
>>>
>>> If we, the D community, want D to succeed, we must change this
>>> attitude. -- Andrei
>>
>> I was just going to let this go without answering, as it's ambiguous,
>> but since Dicebot just said something similar to what I'd have said,
>> I'll bite.  What do you mean by this?  That the people asking for stuff
>> then doing nothing have to change their attitude or those in the D
>> community, like Dicebot and me, who point out that their approach is
>> unrealistic should change our attitude?
>
> Heh, I now see how that's ambiguous. I'm saying we need to start owning
> D issues if we want D to succeed, as opposed to asking people to
> implement their own suggestions. That means taking feedback from folks
> like Manu or Dicebot as "things we should work on" as opposed to "if you
> want it done please do it".
>
> I understand that's counterintuitive but I really think it's the way
> forward. We need to evolve from a tribe to an organization.
>
>> And regardless of your answer to that question, what do you see as
>> "success" for D and how do you plan to get there, given what you know
>> now?
>
> Success is like adult content - you know it when you see it :o). I don't
> think defining it by means of 1-2 simple proxies (downloads, companies
> using D, etc) is very meaningful but it's clear to me we're not
> successful yet.
>
>> It's possible that it's already a success for the community, as it
>> works well enough for the thousands using and handful contributing to
>> it, and they do not see your million-user goal as worth putting effort
>> into.
>
> I'm sure most of us hope broader support for D is highly desirable.
>
>> I'll note that I'd like to see D reach a million users, and I'm doing my
>> small part by trying to get it on the gigantic Android install base, but
>> my desire and single new port doesn't mean much since those will not be
>> enough to get D to a million, and I'm not interested in working on
>> Windows tooling or some other issues that might get it there.
>>
>> Similarly, whatever the definition of success is, whether yours or the
>> community's, it's meaningless without a plan and a push to get there.  I
>> know you can't make people follow your plan, assuming you have one (not
>> a dig, you just may not know how to get to a million yet), but you can
>> still sketch out some specific efforts that you'd like to enable (more
>> user bounties or better ways to get input from commercial users or a
>> much-improved GC, which you have said you'd push for in a reddit
>> comment) or put out a public agenda/roadmap you'd like to see
>> prioritized.
>>
>> Without some purposeful steps in the direction of your "success," the D
>> community is unlikely to randomly amble along towards where you're
>> hoping, at least not in the next couple decades. ;)
>
> I agree, a plan is needed. Walter and I just had a long talk about this.
> We hope to flesh things out better soon.
>
>
> Andrei

I for one will be looking forward to an announcement!