On Wednesday, 28 October 2015 at 17:36:03 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
> I did not mean that absence of a Code of Conduct is license to abuse others. Just that a CoC is itself insulting, paternalistic, and not a solution.

I believe it can be understood, because asocial people are left to deal with social problems alone, they naturally learn to deal with it on their own, hence they see law as paternalistic, but this doesn't apply to social people, who already have law as an obvious solution to abuse. Lattner words it well in his message: CoC is not written for the community, it's written for the oppressive committee to enforce.

On Wednesday, 28 October 2015 at 17:13:27 UTC, deadalnix wrote:
>> http://sarah.thesharps.us/2015/10/05/closing-a-door/
>> https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/38136.html
>>
>> These are different times.
>>
>
> Yup, professional victim use to not be a viable career path.

What do you mean?

Cheers, Jakob.

On Wednesday, 28 October 2015 at 17:36:03 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
> On 10/28/2015 2:12 AM, Jakob Bornecrantz wrote:
>> You are not in good company tho. Even the page you link to says
>> nobody else could or should say stuff like that.
>>
>> And attitudes like that will only disurage people from trying to
>> improve this community.
>>
>> http://sarah.thesharps.us/2015/10/05/closing-a-door/
>> https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/38136.html
>>
>> These are different times.
>
> I did not mean that absence of a Code of Conduct is license to abuse others. Just that a CoC is itself insulting, paternalistic, and not a solution.

Fair enough. Its a shame you see it as insulting.

I pose you this question: if I as a new person coming to this
community and felt that I was being treated unfairly, badly or
any other form where should I turn to? Is this documented somewhere?

Building onto that how should I expect to be treated, you
mentioned decent, how do you define decent?

Cheers, Jakob.

On 10/29/15 7:49 PM, Jakob Bornecrantz wrote:
> On Wednesday, 28 October 2015 at 17:36:03 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
>> On 10/28/2015 2:12 AM, Jakob Bornecrantz wrote:
>>> You are not in good company tho. Even the page you link to says
>>> nobody else could or should say stuff like that.
>>>
>>> And attitudes like that will only disurage people from trying to
>>> improve this community.
>>>
>>> http://sarah.thesharps.us/2015/10/05/closing-a-door/
>>> https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/38136.html
>>>
>>> These are different times.
>>
>> I did not mean that absence of a Code of Conduct is license to abuse
>> others. Just that a CoC is itself insulting, paternalistic, and not a
>> solution.
>
> Fair enough. Its a shame you see it as insulting.
>
> I pose you this question: if I as a new person coming to this
> community and felt that I was being treated unfairly, badly or
> any other form where should I turn to? Is this documented somewhere?

I'd say it's safe to just let this go. If you're treated unkindly by your neighbors or any community you're interacting with, there's no authority to go to as long as they don't break the law. Herein, the leader of this community has a strong opinion that this community shouldn't be policed, which makes things as cut and dried as it gets. No reply needed. Thanks. -- Andrei

On Thursday, 29 October 2015 at 23:49:08 UTC, Jakob Bornecrantz wrote:
> On Wednesday, 28 October 2015 at 17:36:03 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
>> On 10/28/2015 2:12 AM, Jakob Bornecrantz wrote:
>>> You are not in good company tho. Even the page you link to says
>>> nobody else could or should say stuff like that.
>>>
>>> And attitudes like that will only disurage people from trying to
>>> improve this community.
>>>
>>> http://sarah.thesharps.us/2015/10/05/closing-a-door/
>>> https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/38136.html
>>>
>>> These are different times.
>>
>> I did not mean that absence of a Code of Conduct is license to abuse others. Just that a CoC is itself insulting, paternalistic, and not a solution.
>
> Fair enough. Its a shame you see it as insulting.
>
> I pose you this question: if I as a new person coming to this
> community and felt that I was being treated unfairly, badly or
> any other form where should I turn to? Is this documented somewhere?

What do you expect to be done about it?  A code of conduct might make sense for a more formal organization like a business, where you can actually fire someone, but what power do you think anybody has over this completely volunteer community?  The forum is completely open, which has the benefit of engaging people from all over the world combined with the drawback of occasional bad behavior or spam.

This community is small and remarkably friendly while still containing withering criticism over technical issues, that's a fantastic and difficult mix that the early contributors have set the tone for.  You're trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist.  If you simply want someone to complain to if treated badly, it's well known that Walter runs the show here.

> Building onto that how should I expect to be treated, you
> mentioned decent, how do you define decent?

How could this possibly be defined, especially in an international community with many varied norms?  What you may find insulting, others may find mildly pejorative.  Worse, you will never be able to peg something so subjective as "insulting language" under legalese from a code of conduct.  All such a code provides is cover for those wanting to punish someone, while it will almost always be subjective if the actual behavior fits the legalese of the code.

The only possibility where a code of conduct might apply is the one Lattner mentioned for llvm, long before they ever had a code, where "an active contributor... was treating many people in an unacceptable way."  In that case, there is real punishment possible, excising the contributor as they did.  I don't think D has had that problem yet, nor would it be difficult to enforce for an open-source project where nobody's paid for contribution.  Worst case, if there's an entire faction being abusive or supporting one abusive contributor, you tell them to fork.

On Thursday, 29 October 2015 at 23:27:47 UTC, Jakob Bornecrantz wrote:
> On Wednesday, 28 October 2015 at 17:13:27 UTC, deadalnix wrote:
>>> http://sarah.thesharps.us/2015/10/05/closing-a-door/
>>> https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/38136.html
>>>
>>> These are different times.
>>>
>>
>> Yup, professional victim use to not be a viable career path.
>
> What do you mean?
>
> Cheers, Jakob.

Adria Richard, Shanley Kane, Randi Harper, this is the never ending train...

Why would someone capable as Sarah Sharp would join the train is a mystery, but not all mystery are worth spending time solving.

On Friday, 30 October 2015 at 06:04:48 UTC, deadalnix wrote:
> Why would someone capable as Sarah Sharp would join the train is a mystery, but not all mystery are worth spending time solving.

Judging by her post, she tried to force her behavioral standards on the Linux kernel community and did it poorly. Not a mystery. How can one submit a whole community to his bidding?