On Thursday, 18 June 2015 at 14:08:31 UTC, ketmar wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Jun 2015 13:51:05 +0000, Etienne wrote:
>
>> On Thursday, 18 June 2015 at 12:37:15 UTC, Dragos Carp wrote:
>>> On Thursday, 18 June 2015 at 02:22:13 UTC, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
>>>> I would like to ask, what can we improve in our tooling and infrastructure to lessen the burden on release czars?
>>>
>>> Merge dmd, druntime, phobos repos.
>> 
>> If I was release Czar, even DMD would just be a dub package. Let them be managed packages that can be selected by version, with many options! That, my friends, is the way.
>
> but there is still no package manager, though. dub is not a package manager. and it's impossible to write one without scraping code.dlang.org too, as there is no API to get package list, or packages that was updated since the date.

Not every package manager has to provide binaries. We simply build the packages through dub. dub+dmd is a good source package manager in itself, we need to write a dub.json for dmd/druntime/phobos and make it possible to compile them through dub, then all is good

On Thu, 18 Jun 2015 14:14:28 +0000, Etienne wrote:

> Not every package manager has to provide binaries. We simply build the packages through dub. dub+dmd is a good source package manager in itself, we need to write a dub.json for dmd/druntime/phobos and make it possible to compile them through dub, then all is good

i never talked about binaries. what i'm talking about is that dub is not a package manager at all.

how can i get a list of available packages? how can i search by package name or in package descriptions? using web site is not an option, that functionality should be built-in. how can i get compilation flags and dependencies from dub without parsing json, so i can use dub in my build system? (luckily, that seems to be fixed in recent versions, at least i've seen PRs for that)

so i prefer to think about dub and it's "packages" as "dependency downloader", but package manager.

On Thursday, 18 June 2015 at 14:30:59 UTC, ketmar wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Jun 2015 14:14:28 +0000, Etienne wrote:
>
>> [...]
>
> i never talked about binaries. what i'm talking about is that dub is not a package manager at all.
>
> how can i get a list of available packages? how can i search by package name or in package descriptions? using web site is not an option, that functionality should be built-in. how can i get compilation flags and dependencies from dub without parsing json, so i can use dub in my build system? (luckily, that seems to be fixed in recent versions, at least i've seen PRs for that)
>
> so i prefer to think about dub and it's "packages" as "dependency downloader", but package manager.

dub is a build tool with an automatic dependency solver, it really shouldn't be called a package manager.

On Thu, 18 Jun 2015 14:32:12 +0000, weaselcat wrote:

> On Thursday, 18 June 2015 at 14:30:59 UTC, ketmar wrote:
>> On Thu, 18 Jun 2015 14:14:28 +0000, Etienne wrote:
>>
>>> [...]
>>
>> i never talked about binaries. what i'm talking about is that dub is not a package manager at all.
>>
>> how can i get a list of available packages? how can i search by package name or in package descriptions? using web site is not an option, that functionality should be built-in. how can i get compilation flags and dependencies from dub without parsing json, so i can use dub in my build system? (luckily, that seems to be fixed in recent versions, at least i've seen PRs for that)
>>
>> so i prefer to think about dub and it's "packages" as "dependency downloader", but package manager.
> 
> dub is a build tool with an automatic dependency solver, it really shouldn't be called a package manager.

and it's not a build tool too. or, it's a build tool in the sense of "bash is a build tool" -- it can call external commands. Reggae is a build toold. dub is not a build tool.

On Thursday, 18 June 2015 at 13:40:43 UTC, Craig Dillabaugh wrote:
> As others have said this seems a bit harsh.  I presume that by 'we' you mean that yourself and Walter arrived at this decision together?
>
> If you really felt the need to remove Martin from this position, the appropriate way would have been to discuss this matter with him privately, rather than effectively firing him on a public forum.  That also comes across as somewhat unprofessional.

Exactly. One reason why people may decide to contribute to D, is
because they'd like to add it to their resume (a small piece of
compensation for their time). However, these forums can and do
show up in Google searches and publicly outing somebody using their
full name, is unprofessional in this context. Now the one small
benefit he may have gotten from contributing, is potentially squashed
due to carelessness on the leadership of this community. As a potential
contributor, seeing this, is a non-starter.

> Based on the the discussion on the forum it appears that the manner in which this decision has been executed has effectively alienated pretty every good candidate who might have been a replacement ... in addition to almost starting an OT religious holy war.

This entire thread has reflected poorly on the D community. Perhaps
the leadership here should take some tips from the Rust guys and
look to improve their handling with the VOLUNTEERS.

If I was Andrei, I'd publicly apologize to Martin for handling this
so damn poorly and thank him for his work as volunteer (as many have
stated the guy seems to do good work for this community). If I was
Martin, I would not continue on as the release guy, but this kind of
gesture might give some hope to those out there in the community.

Part of being a professional is understanding the context you are in
and behaving appropriately. This is not a corporation paying employees.
This is an opensource project utilizing volunteers who get very little
in return.

Thanks all for the feedback; a follow up is in order seeing as there are a few misunderstandings of the situation.

First off, framing this matter as impinging on someone's vacation is a misinterpretation. Taking time off has nothing to do with it - anyone should. Just Walter, myself, the "This Week in D" author, and the release manager please let us know so things can be planned accordingly.

To thrive, we need to expand the inner circle of folks who are closely involved with D to the extent the community knows why they're missing when they're missing. Currently that circle includes only Walter and myself; if either of us would go dark for weeks without the other (and others) knowing, that'd be worrisome.

To wit, I wrote this to Martin and Walter on May 31st:

====
Today is May 31st, so we're entering the last month of H1. I'd like to get an early start on updating the vision document, and before creating yet another rambling thread on the forum I thought we should start between the three of us.

What do you guys think would be the main points to attack in H2? Martin, it's particularly important to hear from you.
====

I hope it's clearer that it was quite unsettling to not hear back about that or anything else.

Regarding the volunteer vs. paid employee aspect - clearly that's a problem. All I can do now is work on the foundation and hope to find sponsors that would allow us to pay the release manager, the keeper of "This Week in D" and others.

About the privacy aspect - the forum post came after repeated fruitless attempts of private contact. Addressing matters in person, privately, is of course the right way and the one I've tried through all channels I could think of.

Building the process is a difficult and very important job. It stands to reason, then, that we need several folks who can do it and cover contingencies. Martin and I are in talks about building this release together; it would be great if we could get a broader participation.

There's one more note of interest:

> This is off-putting for me as someone who is getting steadily more
> involved in D, what other implicit contracts do you think we've all
> signed?

None, of course. Far as I can tell the dynamics are as follows:

* Walter and I can be counted on being around barring announced absences or exceptional circumstances.

* Adam D. Ruppe, Walter, and I discussed that there will be consistency of "This Week in D". Announced outages are fine, "I'll do it when/if I get to it" is not.

* The release managers should be counted on for planning and reliably carrying the release. I am now sorry I wasn't clearer about that.

* There are a few folks with particularly important roles: Iain (GDC), Kai (LDC), Brad (autotester), and Vladimir (forum and a variety of tools). If any of these would suddenly leave, the community would be in difficulty. They work independently and I wish we found ways to pay them and coordinate better with them, but there is no implied or express expectation.

* There are a number of heavy-hitting contributors (such as Daniel, Kenji, and about a dozen others) who have a strong positive impact. Again there is no expectation they're around.

* Up-and-coming contributors are always welcome and we should improve our tooling to make it easy for anyone to contribute.

Probably the best action item is this:

> I would like to ask, what can we improve in our tooling and
> infrastructure to lessen the burden on release czars? I know nightly
> builds have been discussed for years, and it would be great to take
> advantage of the multi-platform infrastructure of the current
> autotester for it, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen.

Yah, ideally the autotester would just build the release as well for each platform on the same machines it's using. Sadly Brad wouldn't want to take that task.

One thing I'll be trying to work on with Martin is a directory under tools/ that contains reasonably stable release building scripts for all platforms.


Andrei

On Thursday, 18 June 2015 at 14:37:08 UTC, ketmar wrote:
>> dub is a build tool with an automatic dependency solver, it really shouldn't be called a package manager.
>
> and it's not a build tool too. or, it's a build tool in the sense of "bash is a build tool" -- it can call external commands. Reggae is a build toold. dub is not a build tool.

It doesn't matter. Even if everything is locked into code.dlang.org or if you're using a custom shell in the dub.json to clone a git and use that path in the options, or if you're programming shell scripts for every OS. Any interface works as long as it does what it's supposed to do for the said package.

My point is, we need to be able to extend it to build and link an application with a custom druntime/phobos/dmd version from source. These libraries are the backbone of every application.

On Thursday, 18 June 2015 at 14:43:15 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
> To wit, I wrote this to Martin and Walter on May 31st:
>
> ====
> Today is May 31st, so we're entering the last month of H1. I'd like to get an early start on updating the vision document, and before creating yet another rambling thread on the forum I thought we should start between the three of us.
>
> What do you guys think would be the main points to attack in H2? Martin, it's particularly important to hear from you.
> ====
>
> I hope it's clearer that it was quite unsettling to not hear back about that or anything else.
>
> Regarding the volunteer vs. paid employee aspect - clearly that's a problem. All I can do now is work on the foundation and hope to find sponsors that would allow us to pay the release manager, the keeper of "This Week in D" and others.
>
> About the privacy aspect - the forum post came after repeated fruitless attempts of private contact. Addressing matters in person, privately, is of course the right way and the one I've tried through all channels I could think of.

So you can't get a hold of him by email for a few weeks, thus you
feel justified in publicly outing him on a forum? This could have
still been done far more discretely with a conscious attempt to
avoid addressing him directly in any negative overtones. Your
inability to recognize this mistake illustrates a fundamental
disconnect I think you are having.

> Building the process is a difficult and very important job. It stands to reason, then, that we need several folks who can do it and cover contingencies. Martin and I are in talks about building this release together; it would be great if we could get a broader participation.

You are very lucky that Martin has decided to *continue* to help
you out. Again, a good sign that your characterization of the guy
was malformed.

On Thursday, 18 June 2015 at 14:43:15 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
> Thanks all for the feedback; a follow up is in order seeing as there are a few misunderstandings of the situation.
>
> [...]
clip
> Yah, ideally the autotester would just build the release as well for each platform on the same machines it's using. Sadly Brad wouldn't want to take that task.
>
> [...]

Since I was one of those to criticize, let me be the one of the first to say thanks to Andrei for posting this response.  Glad to hear Martin will still be involved in the release process.

Hope you enjoyed your holiday Martin :o)

On 06/18/2015 07:14 AM, ketmar wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Jun 2015 04:21:10 +0000, IgorStepanov wrote:
>
>> This is international forum and we may allow only one kind of
>> intolerance: we may hate programmers, which doesn't use D yet.
>
> we shouldn't hate them. they are poor people that simply can't see The
> Light yet. but even php coder can become a programmer. and programmer can
> become D programmer.
>

It was a joke.