John Reimer wrote:
> Justin C Calvarese wrote:
>> nick wrote:
>>> I would have gladly provided a new layout(the generic tabs on the top,
>>> couple of gradients thing).
>>> The problem is that wiki4d generates (I assume it hasn't changed since I
>>> last looked) code for a website from the 1980s or 1990s. It's not using
>>> divs, spans, etc.
>>>
>>> I know nothing of the underlying technology behind wiki4d.
>>
>> It's pretty simple, but it should be powerful enough.
>>
>> I just changed the template for the whole site to the template that I had been trying out with the DocComments pages.
>>
>> http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?FrontPage
>>
>> Does the new template look any better? I can change it back if you don't think it's an improvement.
>>
>> We can make further changes as well. The template system seems to be pretty flexible. I think my problem is a lack of imagination.
>>
> 
> It is an improvement, but I don't understand why the WordsAreAllRunningTogether for the links.
> 
> I find that aspect quite ugly.  I've seen that system used in other sites, and I just don't understand why it's done that way in the wiki. Is it a limitation of the Wiki?
> 
> -JJR
> 

I'm no wiki expert, but I think the PascalCase links are automatically set up?

-- 
Kyle Furlong // Physics Undergrad, UCSB

"D is going wherever the D community wants it to go." - Walter Bright

Justin C Calvarese wrote:
> nick wrote:
>> I would have gladly provided a new layout(the generic tabs on the top,
>> couple of gradients thing).
>> The problem is that wiki4d generates (I assume it hasn't changed since I
>> last looked) code for a website from the 1980s or 1990s. It's not using
>> divs, spans, etc.
>>
>> I know nothing of the underlying technology behind wiki4d.
> 
> It's pretty simple, but it should be powerful enough.
> 
> I just changed the template for the whole site to the template that I had been trying out with the DocComments pages.
> 
> http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?FrontPage
> 
> Does the new template look any better? I can change it back if you don't think it's an improvement.
> 
> We can make further changes as well. The template system seems to be pretty flexible. I think my problem is a lack of imagination.
> 

This is a good improvement. I will look into the template and see if I cant add some CSS goodness there. What do you think of having a vertical menu system instead? Drop shadows? New Logo?
-- 
Kyle Furlong // Physics Undergrad, UCSB

"D is going wherever the D community wants it to go." - Walter Bright

Walter Bright wrote:
> Kyle Furlong wrote:
>> I'm becoming more and more convinced that D needs a polished presence. How did Java succeed? Marketing. Plain and simple, the first revisions sucked, but got evangelized extremely effectively. How much better, since we have a quality compiler, to market it.
> 
> Java also had a billion dollars behind it and pushing. And as they say in the Air Force, with enough power even a brick outhouse will fly <g>.
> 
>> I think I understand the attitude of Walter and some others. That is, that the merits of the language are self evident to the people who it is written for, e.g. those who seek will find. So from this point of view, marketing is unnecessary, word of mouth about the merits of the language will do this work for us.
> 
> That isn't my attitude at all. I spend probably half of each day evangelizing the language. This involves:
> 
> 1) identifying influential people in the programming community who could be interested in D, and letting them know about it
> 
> 2) talking with webmasters of relevant programming sites to try to get D mentioned on their sites
> 
> 3) preparing presentations, giving them
> 
> 4) watching for relevant discussions coming up outside of our local newsgroups
> 
> 5) in general, trying to ensure that D has a strong presence on the internet
> 
> I think this has been reasonably successful. A year ago, it was normal for people to have never heard of D. Now, it is normal for people to have heard of D, but not know much about it. The next step is to help them know more about it.
> 
> I know some of you are out there doing the same thing, and that is very helpful. More would be better, of course!
> 
> 
>> While I appreciate this feeling, this mode of operation will only gain us a certain base of users, i.e. hobbyists and one man operations who can afford to invest in a new language on just its merits. Everyone else (read, the majority of the IT world) cannot form decisions only on the merits of a compiler. Organizations need reassurances of a polished presence. This means documentation, support, packaging, and marketing.
> 
> I agree, there's plenty of room for improvement there.
> 
>> To this end, I propose the formation of an organization/committee, headed by Walter, to guide the process of creating this polished presence.
>>
>> Some things which this committee should consider are:
>>
>> 1. Unified std library which is 100% covered and stable.
>>
>> Aside: I am strongly biased to creating this library out of Ares + Mango. No offense Walter, but Sean and Kris' code is higher quality at this point.
> 
> That's fine with me.
> 
>> 2. Formation of a GUI /team/ to pick and/or develop further a cross platform solution.
>>
>> Aside: It must be a team. DWT is stagnant because Shawn doesnt have time, and no one else understands the code well enough to continue.
>>
>> 3. Choice of a new mascot/revamp of D-man. Also consider a new name.
>>
>> Aside: I love the name D. But, the benefits of a name bigger than 2 letters are self evident, it should be considered.
> 
> I initially tried another name ("Mars"). Everyone called it D anyway. "D" fits exactly what it is, the next step after C++. Besides, there is far too much momentum already behind calling it D to think of changing. I know that googling "D" is hopeless, which is why I strongly encourage using the phrase "D programming language" as much as possible on D related postings and web pages.
> 
> 
>> Also, D-man has served us well. My initial reaction however, when I was first introduced to him, was, "Wow, what a trashy mascot, how uncreative." Now that I'm used to him, hes alright, but I seriously think we need to reconsider.
> 
> I'm not exactly a professional artist <g>.
> 
>> 4. A new/revampped web presence. The combination of www.digitalmars.com/d/ and www.dsource.org has worked well for us from the standpoint of functionality. However, I think to further the goals of a polished presence, we need a presence more along the lines of www.php.net.
> 
> I like the look of php.net.
> 
> 
>> Aside: I understand that Walter would like as much traffic to drive his click ads, but we could work something out, if it is a big issue. Also, this site could also be owned by DigitalMars as well.
>>
>> I'm interested to hear dissenting opinions as well as Walter's plans for DigitalMars' involvement in the pursuit of D's success in the wider world of computing.
> 
> Plans for improvement should plan on it being implementable on an incremental basis.

Well, I definitely don't expect or even want overnight changes. I agree that the plan should be ramped up with careful thought.

As to your evangelizing efforts, I'm sorry that I underestimated your investment. Please continue the good work, as I do see the progress that D has been making in getting mindshare.

-- 
Kyle Furlong // Physics Undergrad, UCSB

"D is going wherever the D community wants it to go." - Walter Bright

Walter Bright wrote:
>> 4. A new/revampped web presence. The combination of www.digitalmars.com/d/ and www.dsource.org has worked well for us from the standpoint of functionality. However, I think to further the goals of a polished presence, we need a presence more along the lines of www.php.net.
> 
> I like the look of php.net.
> 

I threw together a very quick mockup in html/css and just copy pasted some content into that shell. It could looks tons better with more than 15 minutes worth of work:

http://hcoop.net/~natamas/random/tabs.png

> Most of the Digital Mars site is now driven by Ddoc templates and style sheets. I'm open to suggestions for improvements via changing the style sheets and templates.

One suggestion would be, instead of generating code like this: <pre class="d_code"><span style="color:blue">int</span></pre>

you should say <span class = "identifier">.

Then define "identifier" as being blue in the stylesheet: .d_code .identifier{ color: blue; }

It's much more flexible that way because the appearance of the site can be changed by changing the .css file.

nick wrote:
> Walter Bright wrote:
>>> 4. A new/revampped web presence. The combination of
>>> www.digitalmars.com/d/ and www.dsource.org has worked well for us from
>>> the standpoint of functionality. However, I think to further the goals
>>> of a polished presence, we need a presence more along the lines of
>>> www.php.net.
>> I like the look of php.net.
>>
> 
> I threw together a very quick mockup in html/css and just copy pasted
> some content into that shell. It could looks tons better with more than
> 15 minutes worth of work:
> 
> http://hcoop.net/~natamas/random/tabs.png
> 
>> Most of the Digital Mars site is now driven by Ddoc templates and style sheets. I'm open to suggestions for improvements via changing the style sheets and templates. 
> 
> One suggestion would be, instead of generating code like this:
> <pre class="d_code"><span style="color:blue">int</span></pre>
> 
> you should say <span class = "identifier">.
> 
> Then define "identifier" as being blue in the stylesheet:
> .d_code .identifier{ color: blue; }
> 
> It's much more flexible that way because the appearance of the site can
> be changed by changing the .css file.
> 
> 

Yes, is it just me, or does half the world still not understand the benefits of the separation of document structure and presentation?

BTW, nice layout, looks very /powerful/. (Big red D)

-- 
Kyle Furlong // Physics Undergrad, UCSB

"D is going wherever the D community wants it to go." - Walter Bright

Walter Bright wrote:

> Kyle Furlong wrote:

>> To this end, I propose the formation of an organization/committee, headed by Walter, to guide the process of creating this polished presence.
>>
>> Some things which this committee should consider are:
>>
>> 1. Unified std library which is 100% covered and stable.
>>
>> Aside: I am strongly biased to creating this library out of Ares + Mango. No offense Walter, but Sean and Kris' code is higher quality at this point.
> 
> That's fine with me.

So, does this now mean that Phobos, GPhobos, and Ares should be merged ?

As in, splitting the Phobos library up - into the 3 Ares subcomponents:
* the runtime library (phobos.lib)
**  the DMD compiler runtime (dmdrt.lib)
**  the DMD garbage collector (dmdgc.lib)
**  the standard library (ares.lib)

I guess we have a few items to sort out then, like: linux/Unix/Posix,
and what the module hierarchy should look like and other similar things.
(but better support for posix and win32 headers would be a good change)

Or did you just mean it as in "it's OK that theirs is higher quality" ?

--anders

John Reimer wrote:
> It is an improvement, but I don't understand why the WordsAreAllRunningTogether for the links.
> 
> I find that aspect quite ugly.  I've seen that system used in other sites, and I just don't understand why it's done that way in the wiki. Is it a limitation of the Wiki?

The entire idea of a Wiki is that users (i.e. _the_readers_) do most of the writing. One can't expect them to be computer savvy. At the same time, it is imperative that the texts actually do contain links to other pages, wherever needed. (In other words, links should not remain uncreated just because "it is hard to do".)

The simplest way to achieve this is, just have page names in CamelCase. Then any word in CamelCase is assumed a link.

(It's not a matter of technology, it is entirely a matter of what is a simple enough way to create links, so that folks actually get around to doing it!)

Invent an "easier" way, and you'll do the Wiki culture a big service.

In article <e39n1d$19j3$1@digitaldaemon.com>, Kyle Furlong says...
>
>nick wrote:
>> Walter Bright wrote:
>>>> 4. A new/revampped web presence. The combination of www.digitalmars.com/d/ and www.dsource.org has worked well for us from the standpoint of functionality. However, I think to further the goals of a polished presence, we need a presence more along the lines of www.php.net.
>>> I like the look of php.net.
>>>
>> 
>> I threw together a very quick mockup in html/css and just copy pasted some content into that shell. It could looks tons better with more than 15 minutes worth of work:
>> 
>> http://hcoop.net/~natamas/random/tabs.png
>> 
>>> Most of the Digital Mars site is now driven by Ddoc templates and style sheets. I'm open to suggestions for improvements via changing the style sheets and templates.
>> 
>> One suggestion would be, instead of generating code like this: <pre class="d_code"><span style="color:blue">int</span></pre>
>> 
>> you should say <span class = "identifier">.
>> 
>> Then define "identifier" as being blue in the stylesheet: .d_code .identifier{ color: blue; }
>> 
>> It's much more flexible that way because the appearance of the site can be changed by changing the .css file.
>> 
>> 
>
>Yes, is it just me, or does half the world still not understand the benefits of the separation of document structure and presentation?
>
>BTW, nice layout, looks very /powerful/. (Big red D)
>
>-- 
>Kyle Furlong // Physics Undergrad, UCSB
>
>"D is going wherever the D community wants it to go." - Walter Bright

I agree with Kyle. It looks powerful and well organised. It also looks a little more 21st century ;) Good work.

Kelly Wilson

nick wrote:
>> Most of the Digital Mars site is now driven by Ddoc templates and style sheets. I'm open to suggestions for improvements via changing the style sheets and templates. 
> 
> One suggestion would be, instead of generating code like this:
> <pre class="d_code"><span style="color:blue">int</span></pre>
> 
> you should say <span class = "identifier">.
> 
> Then define "identifier" as being blue in the stylesheet:
> .d_code .identifier{ color: blue; }
> 
> It's much more flexible that way because the appearance of the site can
> be changed by changing the .css file.

I'll make the change. Thanks!

Kyle Furlong wrote:
> [snip]
> You understand the version numbers yes?
> 
> We are at the 155th revision thus 0.155. If Walter releases a new revision twice a month, it would take 26.875 years to reach 0.8.
> 

But if 0.155 is the 155th revision, wouldn't that make 0.8 the eighth revision?  And thus, wouldn't we have passed that 26 years ago? :P

  -- Daniel "Not contributing anything, really"

-- 

v1sw5+8Yhw5ln4+5pr6OFma8u6+7Lw4Tm6+7l6+7D a2Xs3MSr2e4/6+7t4TNSMb6HTOp5en5g6RAHCP    http://hackerkey.com/