Justin - I will come up with a simple layout as a plain html/css template (give me a couple days). Then, if the layout looks good to you and others, we can have a go at using that with the wiki4d template system and see what that produces.

I assume the wiki4d template is just an HTML page with some sort of <?php insert snippet of content here?> type tag.


> We can make further changes as well. The template system seems to be pretty flexible. I think my problem is a lack of imagination.
No need to be imaginative. Webpages should not be original; they should be informative and have the appearance of your "normal professional webpage".

Justin C Calvarese wrote:
> nick wrote:
> 
>> I would have gladly provided a new layout(the generic tabs on the top,
>> couple of gradients thing).
>> The problem is that wiki4d generates (I assume it hasn't changed since I
>> last looked) code for a website from the 1980s or 1990s. It's not using
>> divs, spans, etc.
>>
>> I know nothing of the underlying technology behind wiki4d.
> 
> 
> It's pretty simple, but it should be powerful enough.
> 
> I just changed the template for the whole site to the template that I had been trying out with the DocComments pages.
> 
> http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?FrontPage
> 
> Does the new template look any better? I can change it back if you don't think it's an improvement.
> 
> We can make further changes as well. The template system seems to be pretty flexible. I think my problem is a lack of imagination.
> 

Wow, omg, it's looks TONS better now!!
keep it up!!

To be honest: Now for the first time, I feel like I should take the time to read and contribute to wiki4D

On Tue, 02 May 2006 22:42:57 -0500, Justin C Calvarese wrote:

> nick wrote:
>> I would have gladly provided a new layout(the generic tabs on the top,
>> couple of gradients thing).
>> The problem is that wiki4d generates (I assume it hasn't changed since I
>> last looked) code for a website from the 1980s or 1990s. It's not using
>> divs, spans, etc.
>> 
>> I know nothing of the underlying technology behind wiki4d.
> 
> It's pretty simple, but it should be powerful enough.
> 
> I just changed the template for the whole site to the template that I had been trying out with the DocComments pages.
> 
> http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?FrontPage
> 
> Does the new template look any better? I can change it back if you don't think it's an improvement.
> 
> We can make further changes as well. The template system seems to be pretty flexible. I think my problem is a lack of imagination.

Yes it is better. How can 'we' help you further improve the templates? By that I mean, what capabilities are there in the template system? How does it work? etc ...
-- 
Derek
(skype: derek.j.parnell)
Melbourne, Australia
"Down with mediocracy!"
3/05/2006 2:03:52 PM

Derek Parnell wrote:
> On Tue, 02 May 2006 22:42:57 -0500, Justin C Calvarese wrote:
>> I just changed the template for the whole site to the template that I had been trying out with the DocComments pages.
>>
>> http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?FrontPage
>>
>> Does the new template look any better? I can change it back if you don't think it's an improvement.

I agree it's already a big improvement.

>> We can make further changes as well. The template system seems to be pretty flexible. I think my problem is a lack of imagination.

My problem is both a lack of imagination and a lack of knowledge of how style sheets, etc., work.

> Yes it is better. How can 'we' help you further improve the templates?
> By that I mean, what capabilities are there in the template system? How
> does it work? etc ...

Is it the same wiki as drives www.wikipedia.org? I like the look & feel of that site. It's simple and elegant.

Most of the Digital Mars site is now driven by Ddoc templates and style sheets. I'm open to suggestions for improvements via changing the style sheets and templates.

nick wrote:
> Justin - I will come up with a simple layout as a plain html/css
> template (give me a couple days). Then, if the layout looks good to you
> and others, we can have a go at using that with the wiki4d template
> system and see what that produces.

That'd be fine. Also, what you could do is create a new template at Wiki4D. That's what I did under my folder when I was testing the system out:
http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?JustinCalvarese/Template

When I thought it was ready for prime time, I copied it to the DocComments folder and set it up as the template using the Context subpage.

> I assume the wiki4d template is just an HTML page with some sort of
> <?php insert snippet of content here?> type tag.

Well, I think it actually runs on Perl, but it's the same kind of idea.

There aren't really any instructions for this, but I figured it out by some examples. And I think examples can explain it well enough. This is the current template:
http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?DocComments/WikiTemplate

Here is a newer templates from another ProWiki site:
http://www.prowiki.org/prowiki/wiki.cgi?Admin/Template/SB

The old template is mentioned here (in case you were curious):
http://www.digitalmars.com/drn-bin/wwwnews?digitalmars.D/33159

>> We can make further changes as well. The template system seems to be
>> pretty flexible. I think my problem is a lack of imagination.
> No need to be imaginative. Webpages should not be original; they should
> be informative and have the appearance of your "normal professional
> webpage".

You have a good point. In any case, I was trying to split the difference between the Digital Mars website and MediaWiki's "monobook" style.

-- 
jcc7

Kyle Furlong wrote:
> I'm becoming more and more convinced that D needs a polished presence. How did Java succeed? Marketing. Plain and simple, the first revisions sucked, but got evangelized extremely effectively. How much better, since we have a quality compiler, to market it.

Java also had a billion dollars behind it and pushing. And as they say in the Air Force, with enough power even a brick outhouse will fly <g>.

> I think I understand the attitude of Walter and some others. That is, that the merits of the language are self evident to the people who it is written for, e.g. those who seek will find. So from this point of view, marketing is unnecessary, word of mouth about the merits of the language will do this work for us.

That isn't my attitude at all. I spend probably half of each day evangelizing the language. This involves:

1) identifying influential people in the programming community who could be interested in D, and letting them know about it

2) talking with webmasters of relevant programming sites to try to get D mentioned on their sites

3) preparing presentations, giving them

4) watching for relevant discussions coming up outside of our local newsgroups

5) in general, trying to ensure that D has a strong presence on the internet

I think this has been reasonably successful. A year ago, it was normal for people to have never heard of D. Now, it is normal for people to have heard of D, but not know much about it. The next step is to help them know more about it.

I know some of you are out there doing the same thing, and that is very helpful. More would be better, of course!


> While I appreciate this feeling, this mode of operation will only gain us a certain base of users, i.e. hobbyists and one man operations who can afford to invest in a new language on just its merits. Everyone else (read, the majority of the IT world) cannot form decisions only on the merits of a compiler. Organizations need reassurances of a polished presence. This means documentation, support, packaging, and marketing.

I agree, there's plenty of room for improvement there.

> To this end, I propose the formation of an organization/committee, headed by Walter, to guide the process of creating this polished presence.
> 
> Some things which this committee should consider are:
> 
> 1. Unified std library which is 100% covered and stable.
> 
> Aside: I am strongly biased to creating this library out of Ares + Mango. No offense Walter, but Sean and Kris' code is higher quality at this point.

That's fine with me.

> 2. Formation of a GUI /team/ to pick and/or develop further a cross platform solution.
> 
> Aside: It must be a team. DWT is stagnant because Shawn doesnt have time, and no one else understands the code well enough to continue.
> 
> 3. Choice of a new mascot/revamp of D-man. Also consider a new name.
> 
> Aside: I love the name D. But, the benefits of a name bigger than 2 letters are self evident, it should be considered.

I initially tried another name ("Mars"). Everyone called it D anyway. "D" fits exactly what it is, the next step after C++. Besides, there is far too much momentum already behind calling it D to think of changing. I know that googling "D" is hopeless, which is why I strongly encourage using the phrase "D programming language" as much as possible on D related postings and web pages.


> Also, D-man has served us well. My initial reaction however, when I was first introduced to him, was, "Wow, what a trashy mascot, how uncreative." Now that I'm used to him, hes alright, but I seriously think we need to reconsider.

I'm not exactly a professional artist <g>.

> 4. A new/revampped web presence. The combination of www.digitalmars.com/d/ and www.dsource.org has worked well for us from the standpoint of functionality. However, I think to further the goals of a polished presence, we need a presence more along the lines of www.php.net.

I like the look of php.net.


> Aside: I understand that Walter would like as much traffic to drive his click ads, but we could work something out, if it is a big issue. Also, this site could also be owned by DigitalMars as well.
> 
> I'm interested to hear dissenting opinions as well as Walter's plans for DigitalMars' involvement in the pursuit of D's success in the wider world of computing.

Plans for improvement should plan on it being implementable on an incremental basis.

Walter Bright wrote:
> Derek Parnell wrote:
>> On Tue, 02 May 2006 22:42:57 -0500, Justin C Calvarese wrote:
>>> I just changed the template for the whole site to the template that I had been trying out with the DocComments pages.
>>>
>>> http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?FrontPage
>>>
>>> Does the new template look any better? I can change it back if you don't think it's an improvement.
> 
> I agree it's already a big improvement.

Great.

>>> We can make further changes as well. The template system seems to be pretty flexible. I think my problem is a lack of imagination.
> 
> My problem is both a lack of imagination and a lack of knowledge of how style sheets, etc., work.

Yeah, style sheets are tricky.

>> Yes it is better. How can 'we' help you further improve the templates?
>> By that I mean, what capabilities are there in the template system? How
>> does it work? etc ...
> 
> Is it the same wiki as drives www.wikipedia.org? I like the look & feel of that site. It's simple and elegant.

No, it's not. Wikipedia runs on MediaWiki, and Wiki4D runs on ProWiki. Different wiki software has different strengths and weaknesses. I've worked more with ProWiki than any other wiki software, and I've become quite biased towards it. I'm not as familiar with MediaWiki. So when I try to use Media wiki I always find that I'm trying to get it to accept the ProWiki way of doing things and feeling unsatisfied.

> Most of the Digital Mars site is now driven by Ddoc templates and style sheets. I'm open to suggestions for improvements via changing the style sheets and templates.

The Digital Mars website has improved a lot from what it used to look like. I think there's still room for improvement, but I think it's in much better shape than it used to be.

-- 
jcc7

Derek Parnell wrote:
> On Tue, 02 May 2006 22:42:57 -0500, Justin C Calvarese wrote:
> 
>> nick wrote:
>>> I would have gladly provided a new layout(the generic tabs on the top,
>>> couple of gradients thing).
>>> The problem is that wiki4d generates (I assume it hasn't changed since I
>>> last looked) code for a website from the 1980s or 1990s. It's not using
>>> divs, spans, etc.
>>>
>>> I know nothing of the underlying technology behind wiki4d.
>> It's pretty simple, but it should be powerful enough.
>>
>> I just changed the template for the whole site to the template that I had been trying out with the DocComments pages.
>>
>> http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?FrontPage
>>
>> Does the new template look any better? I can change it back if you don't think it's an improvement.
>>
>> We can make further changes as well. The template system seems to be pretty flexible. I think my problem is a lack of imagination.
> 
> Yes it is better. How can 'we' help you further improve the templates?
> By that I mean, what capabilities are there in the template system? How
> does it work? etc ...

I kind of figured out how it worked by trial-and-error, so I don't know how much I can teach you, but I tried to explain some of it in this post:

http://www.digitalmars.com/drn-bin/wwwnews?digitalmars.D/37387

I guess the one sentence summary is that the "Context" page is where the configurations are stored (such as setting a template page). And looking at one template can explain how to create another template.

I can try to explain more later, but most of what I know is already in the aforementioned post.

-- 
jcc7

Justin C Calvarese wrote:
> nick wrote:
>> I would have gladly provided a new layout(the generic tabs on the top,
>> couple of gradients thing).
>> The problem is that wiki4d generates (I assume it hasn't changed since I
>> last looked) code for a website from the 1980s or 1990s. It's not using
>> divs, spans, etc.
>>
>> I know nothing of the underlying technology behind wiki4d.
> 
> It's pretty simple, but it should be powerful enough.
> 
> I just changed the template for the whole site to the template that I had been trying out with the DocComments pages.
> 
> http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?FrontPage
> 
> Does the new template look any better? I can change it back if you don't think it's an improvement.
> 
> We can make further changes as well. The template system seems to be pretty flexible. I think my problem is a lack of imagination.
> 

It is an improvement, but I don't understand why the WordsAreAllRunningTogether for the links.

I find that aspect quite ugly.  I've seen that system used in other sites, and I just don't understand why it's done that way in the wiki. Is it a limitation of the Wiki?

-JJR

On Tue, 2 May 2006, Kyle Furlong wrote:

> 4. A new/revampped web presence. The combination of www.digitalmars.com/d/ and www.dsource.org has worked well for us from the standpoint of functionality. However, I think to further the goals of a polished presence, we need a presence more along the lines of www.php.net.
> 
> Aside: I understand that Walter would like as much traffic to drive his click ads, but we could work something out, if it is a big issue. Also, this site could also be owned by DigitalMars as well.
> 
> I'm interested to hear dissenting opinions as well as Walter's plans for DigitalMars' involvement in the pursuit of D's success in the wider world of computing.

The recent look/feel updates to wiki4d are good, in general change spurrs activity. :)

As a step to facilitate even more activity, I just spent an hour or so going through a good portion of the contents of this wiki and created a page to list stale content:

     http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?StalePages

In the process, I found this page, which is also a good place to concentrate some energy:

     http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?HelpDProgress

Additionally, I added a reference to the StalePages page on this HelpDProgress page.

I'll be adding to the list of staleness as well as addressing some of the pages that I feel suited to tackle, but a group effort is called for.

Later,
Brad