December 18, 2023

On Monday, 18 December 2023 at 14:08:19 UTC, bachmeier wrote:

> >

Also telling they get the job done "quietly", are you trying to hide the fact dlang is nearly dead

It doesn't add anything to the conversation to make ridiculous claims like this with no evidence. Calling D "nearly dead" indicates you're not making a good faith effort to participate in a discussion.

I find it very funny how every time I ask anybody to show me any "real app" written in D (to prove that D isn't dead), nobody can do it. All I hear is "Symmetry this" and "Symmetry that". Sometimes DPlug comes by. But I still haven't seen any real life useful app being developed in D. Never. So it's always either Symmetry, either some rumors about some company allegedly using D back in 2015 to do something with no real proof that D is still there or it was used in the first place.

What is the point of a programming language? For me, it's to make software. If the software isn't being made - the language is dead.

>

They didn't post complaints, they wrote code. Then once they wrote all those libraries, other people used them.

For real? People complain about Python all the time. And because of those complaints something is being done about it. People complain because they care. When people stop complaining it's a telltale sign that they stopped caring (or left). Which is probably why you don't see a lot of complaints about D - because nobody is really writing D anyway. Every single person has left already.

>

What will help this language at this point is working on libraries, documentation, tutorials, etc.

I have been saying the same thing for a logn time now. But now-now, I say nobody will write libraries for a language that actively prevents you from writing libraries in the first place. Like, why do you expect someone to do their job when they dare to complain about stuff? The amount of times I've been told to "shut up and do it yourself" is seriously unacceptable. To a degree of being told "just fork the lang if you don't like it". This is no way to drive in contributors.

On Monday, 18 December 2023 at 15:14:51 UTC, Hors wrote:

>

From me: all languages haves something to offer, like python is beginner friendly, C was the master of it's time, Rust allows you to write good performant and safe code. But I can't really see whats D has to offer, D has many features of course, but when you using libraries, you may need to throw away half of the D.

Actually, over time, D became significantly lacking in features compared to other languages. The world has changed, and at this point in time, with Native AOT being a thing and producing reasonably sized executables, C# became a much better choice for me. And guess where I'm going to :)

December 18, 2023

On Monday, 18 December 2023 at 15:48:02 UTC, GrimMaple wrote:

>

On Monday, 18 December 2023 at 14:08:19 UTC, bachmeier wrote:

> >

Also telling they get the job done "quietly", are you trying to hide the fact dlang is nearly dead

It doesn't add anything to the conversation to make ridiculous claims like this with no evidence. Calling D "nearly dead" indicates you're not making a good faith effort to participate in a discussion.

I find it very funny how every time I ask anybody to show me any "real app" written in D (to prove that D isn't dead), nobody can do it. All I hear is "Symmetry this" and "Symmetry that". Sometimes DPlug comes by. But I still haven't seen any real life useful app being developed in D. Never. So it's always either Symmetry, either some rumors about some company allegedly using D back in 2015 to do something with no real proof that D is still there or it was used in the first place.

Here we go:
*) Vtube software - https://inochi2d.com/
*) Photo management software - https://aspect.bildhuus.com/
*) VST music things - https://www.auburnsounds.com/
*) OneDrive Linux client - https://abraunegg.github.io/
*) PasteBin "better" alternative - https://paste.myst.rs/

This is some big (with web-sites). Also Hipreme's game engine, a lot of stuff from Adam.
A bit outdated, but still relevant project from Netflix (vectorflow) and eBay(tsv-utils).

December 18, 2023

On Monday, 18 December 2023 at 16:30:23 UTC, Sergey wrote:

>

On Monday, 18 December 2023 at 15:48:02 UTC, GrimMaple wrote:

>

[...]

Here we go:
*) Vtube software - https://inochi2d.com/
*) Photo management software - https://aspect.bildhuus.com/
*) VST music things - https://www.auburnsounds.com/
*) OneDrive Linux client - https://abraunegg.github.io/
*) PasteBin "better" alternative - https://paste.myst.rs/

This is some big (with web-sites). Also Hipreme's game engine, a lot of stuff from Adam.
A bit outdated, but still relevant project from Netflix (vectorflow) and eBay(tsv-utils).

"A bit outdated" is very likely to mean they switched from D to another programming language or simply abandoned the project.

Tbh It's cool to see D has some uses, but why just "some" when clearly it has potential to be something bigger, thats why we complaint

December 18, 2023

On Monday, 18 December 2023 at 15:48:02 UTC, GrimMaple wrote:

>

On Monday, 18 December 2023 at 14:08:19 UTC, bachmeier wrote:
I find it very funny how every time I ask anybody to show me any "real app" written in D (to prove that D isn't dead), nobody can do it.

Maybe they're just ignoring your request, because as soon as "real" enters the discussion, you know everything being said is BS. In discussions of programming languages, real applications are what I write, toy applications are what everyone else writes.

All I have to do is open my computer to see it being used for real apps. I'm not going to waste my time telling you about it, because you'll dismiss it as a toy, and I won't get those five minutes back.

December 18, 2023

On Monday, 18 December 2023 at 16:44:38 UTC, bachmeier wrote:

>

On Monday, 18 December 2023 at 15:48:02 UTC, GrimMaple wrote:

>

On Monday, 18 December 2023 at 14:08:19 UTC, bachmeier wrote:
I find it very funny how every time I ask anybody to show me any "real app" written in D (to prove that D isn't dead), nobody can do it.

Maybe they're just ignoring your request, because as soon as "real" enters the discussion, you know everything being said is BS. In discussions of programming languages, real applications are what I write, toy applications are what everyone else writes.

All I have to do is open my computer to see it being used for real apps. I'm not going to waste my time telling you about it, because you'll dismiss it as a toy, and I won't get those five minutes back.

Now calm urself down, you dont have any rights to insult people "they are not worth my time" just because they dont agree with you.

December 18, 2023

On Monday, 18 December 2023 at 16:44:38 UTC, bachmeier wrote:

>

Maybe they're just ignoring your request, because as soon as "real" enters the discussion, you know everything being said is BS. In discussions of programming languages, real applications are what I write, toy applications are what everyone else writes.

All I have to do is open my computer to see it being used for real apps. I'm not going to waste my time telling you about it, because you'll dismiss it as a toy, and I won't get those five minutes back.

They are ignoring me because they know what I really mean. Just pointing a few projects isn't going to cut it, and people understand it. Obviously, even the most dead language in the world is going to have a few projects written in them. For any non-dead language the list should be miles long, as is the case with C#, Rust, Swift, Kotlin, etc. You wouldn't need to resort to A bit outdated, but still relevant project to name even hundreds of programs written in Kotlin, yet here it begins after naming just 5. Not to mention, that I contributed personally to several things off that list and have to keep a vectorflow fork up just to make it compile since original author won't accept PRs anymore ¯_(ツ)_/¯

Also, I think D is the only language that needs to reassure its alive-ness by having "orgs using D" page (which in reality does even more harm than good, and it's kind of funny in its own way). I have never seen anything like that for other languages. Why don't we just admit that people are not really doing much with D and work on fixing it?

P.S. That "I've got to fix this myself because the original author isn't doing much themselves anymore" thing has happened to me so many times at this point that I'm genuinely sick of it.

December 18, 2023

On Monday, 18 December 2023 at 17:54:14 UTC, GrimMaple wrote:

>

On Monday, 18 December 2023 at 16:44:38 UTC, bachmeier wrote:

>

Maybe they're just ignoring your request, because as soon as "real" enters the discussion, you know everything being said is BS. In discussions of programming languages, real applications are what I write, toy applications are what everyone else writes.

All I have to do is open my computer to see it being used for real apps. I'm not going to waste my time telling you about it, because you'll dismiss it as a toy, and I won't get those five minutes back.

They are ignoring me because they know what I really mean. Just pointing a few projects isn't going to cut it, and people understand it. Obviously, even the most dead language in the world is going to have a few projects written in them. For any non-dead language the list should be miles long, as is the case with C#, Rust, Swift, Kotlin, etc. You wouldn't need to resort to A bit outdated, but still relevant project to name even hundreds of programs written in Kotlin, yet here it begins after naming just 5. Not to mention, that I contributed personally to several things off that list and have to keep a vectorflow fork up just to make it compile since original author won't accept PRs anymore ¯_(ツ)_/¯

Also, I think D is the only language that needs to reassure its alive-ness by having "orgs using D" page (which in reality does even more harm than good, and it's kind of funny in its own way). I have never seen anything like that for other languages. Why don't we just admit that people are not really doing much with D and work on fixing it?

P.S. That "I've got to fix this myself because the original author isn't doing much themselves anymore" thing has happened to me so many times at this point that I'm genuinely sick of it.

Some people wants to just make things stay how they want, while ignoring others. Of course this can never be case for real, no one is superior to me (and vice versa), my existence can't be ignored just because others don't agree with me.

And I am sure they will soon reply "Just quit D and use other languages", I am answering:
Of course it is easy to just switch language and never look back. if we discuss here, then we still care about D and hope to change things (in a good way), but of course some "superiors" here not wants that and tries making things harder (just to waste their and our time).

December 18, 2023
On 12/18/2023 3:12 AM, IGotD- wrote:
> Have you ever thought about keeping the raw pointers as they are. Classes are references types that are allocated using GC. Structs are value types that cannot directly be allocated using GC. If you want to allocate a struct using GC they need to be encapsulated in a GC object. Manual heap allocation are entirely done with raw pointers as before.
> 
> This is essentially what Swift does, classes are references types that are allocated using GC and structs are value types that you cannot directly allocate on the heap or GC on its own.
> 
> This change is breaking change but can be done. A few standard library types must be rewritten though but that is under the hood not so exposed to the programmer.

I don't see the advantage of this.
December 18, 2023

On Monday, 18 December 2023 at 15:14:51 UTC, Hors wrote:

>

On Monday, 18 December 2023 at 14:08:19 UTC, bachmeier wrote:

>

GrimMaple is the author of dlangui, and talking about why writing libraries in D is not a good experience.

Seems you're quite relatively new here. DlangUI was authored by someone else. It doesn't look like it changed much since. But I'm glad he's keeping it alive. DlangUI is packed with features. If I had a $1m to spend on D, that's where it would go.

Its become obvious to me that a lot of D devs don't have interest in GUI apps, at least the kind that some would call a "real app". Those that do, know D enough to interop with C or c++ to use one of those toolkits. It could explain why projects like DlangUI, beamUI, and the others that got halfway there all didn't gain much adoption. You could argue none of them became stable enough to use. GUI toolkits are hard for an individual from what I understand.

With that said, we have...

  • arsd.mingui by Adam which surprisingly is packed although it doesn't look pretty on Linux 😅

  • gtk-d which I personally like since its native to Linux and can be styled to look great on Windows too.
    CSS styling gtkd

D seems to be more popular for tooling, server-side web dev, and non-gui uses. I personally curious to know how people use D now. I haven't been active for the past 3yrs lol.

>

Another comment by GrimMaple:

>

And it's not like building tools/3rd party for D is a good idea anyway. Since the language can't decide what it wants to be, and you end up having to either overengineer your code, either listen to a lot of complaints how your code is unsupported in certain cases.

GrimMaple here again talks about why writing libraries in D is not a good experience.
If you want developers to use and write libraries for your language, you need to have something good and stable to offer them.

GrimMaple seems like me from 4 yrs ago complaining about what I thought D needed to be lol. I've since moved on to contributing my fair share to increase adoption.

December 19, 2023
On Monday, 18 December 2023 at 20:14:55 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
> On 12/18/2023 3:12 AM, IGotD- wrote:
>> Have you ever thought about keeping the raw pointers as they are. Classes are references types that are allocated using GC. Structs are value types that cannot directly be allocated using GC. If you want to allocate a struct using GC they need to be encapsulated in a GC object. Manual heap allocation are entirely done with raw pointers as before.
>> 
>> This is essentially what Swift does, classes are references types that are allocated using GC and structs are value types that you cannot directly allocate on the heap or GC on its own.
>> 
>> This change is breaking change but can be done. A few standard library types must be rewritten though but that is under the hood not so exposed to the programmer.
>
> I don't see the advantage of this.

The advantage is by forcing GC objects to be an actual object (class), you can modify the GC algorithm to whatever you want. Unlike today we're stuck with a rudimentary GC type that might deter a lot of potential users and use cases.