I'm becoming more and more convinced that D needs a polished presence. How did Java succeed? Marketing. Plain and simple, the first revisions sucked, but got evangelized extremely effectively. How much better, since we have a quality compiler, to market it.

I think I understand the attitude of Walter and some others. That is, that the merits of the language are self evident to the people who it is written for, e.g. those who seek will find. So from this point of view, marketing is unnecessary, word of mouth about the merits of the language will do this work for us.

While I appreciate this feeling, this mode of operation will only gain us a certain base of users, i.e. hobbyists and one man operations who can afford to invest in a new language on just its merits. Everyone else (read, the majority of the IT world) cannot form decisions only on the merits of a compiler. Organizations need reassurances of a polished presence. This means documentation, support, packaging, and marketing.

To this end, I propose the formation of an organization/committee, headed by Walter, to guide the process of creating this polished presence.

Some things which this committee should consider are:

1. Unified std library which is 100% covered and stable.

Aside: I am strongly biased to creating this library out of Ares + Mango. No offense Walter, but Sean and Kris' code is higher quality at this point.

2. Formation of a GUI /team/ to pick and/or develop further a cross platform solution.

Aside: It must be a team. DWT is stagnant because Shawn doesnt have time, and no one else understands the code well enough to continue.

3. Choice of a new mascot/revamp of D-man. Also consider a new name.

Aside: I love the name D. But, the benefits of a name bigger than 2 letters are self evident, it should be considered. Also, D-man has served us well. My initial reaction however, when I was first introduced to him, was, "Wow, what a trashy mascot, how uncreative." Now that I'm used to him, hes alright, but I seriously think we need to reconsider.

4. A new/revampped web presence. The combination of www.digitalmars.com/d/ and www.dsource.org has worked well for us from the standpoint of functionality. However, I think to further the goals of a polished presence, we need a presence more along the lines of www.php.net.

Aside: I understand that Walter would like as much traffic to drive his click ads, but we could work something out, if it is a big issue. Also, this site could also be owned by DigitalMars as well.

I'm interested to hear dissenting opinions as well as Walter's plans for DigitalMars' involvement in the pursuit of D's success in the wider world of computing.

-- 
Kyle Furlong // Physics Undergrad, UCSB

"D is going wherever the D community wants it to go." - Walter Bright

Kyle Furlong wrote:

> I'm becoming more and more convinced that D needs a polished presence. How did Java succeed? Marketing. Plain and simple, the first revisions sucked, but got evangelized extremely effectively. How much better, since we have a quality compiler, to market it.
> 
> I think I understand the attitude of Walter and some others. That is, that the merits of the language are self evident to the people who it is written for, e.g. those who seek will find. So from this point of view, marketing is unnecessary, word of mouth about the merits of the language will do this work for us.
> 
> While I appreciate this feeling, this mode of operation will only gain us a certain base of users, i.e. hobbyists and one man operations who can afford to invest in a new language on just its merits. Everyone else (read, the majority of the IT world) cannot form decisions only on the merits of a compiler. Organizations need reassurances of a polished presence. This means documentation, support, packaging, and marketing.
> 
> To this end, I propose the formation of an organization/committee,
> headed by Walter, to guide the process of creating this polished presence.
> 
> Some things which this committee should consider are:
> 
> 1. Unified std library which is 100% covered and stable.
> 
> Aside: I am strongly biased to creating this library out of Ares + Mango. No offense Walter, but Sean and Kris' code is higher quality at this point.
> 
> 2. Formation of a GUI /team/ to pick and/or develop further a cross platform solution.
> 
> Aside: It must be a team. DWT is stagnant because Shawn doesnt have time, and no one else understands the code well enough to continue.
> 
> 3. Choice of a new mascot/revamp of D-man. Also consider a new name.
> 
> Aside: I love the name D. But, the benefits of a name bigger than 2 letters are self evident, it should be considered. Also, D-man has served us well. My initial reaction however, when I was first introduced to him, was, "Wow, what a trashy mascot, how uncreative." Now that I'm used to him, hes alright, but I seriously think we need to reconsider.
> 
> 4. A new/revampped web presence. The combination of www.digitalmars.com/d/ and www.dsource.org has worked well for us from the standpoint of functionality. However, I think to further the goals of a polished presence, we need a presence more along the lines of www.php.net.
> 
> Aside: I understand that Walter would like as much traffic to drive his click ads, but we could work something out, if it is a big issue. Also, this site could also be owned by DigitalMars as well.
> 
> I'm interested to hear dissenting opinions as well as Walter's plans for DigitalMars' involvement in the pursuit of D's success in the wider world of computing.
> 


I mostly agree, and where I do, I agree very emphatically.

The only point I disagree with is 3... A better D-man would be nice (sorry Walter) but changing the name is a bad idea.  The name "D" has already made significant inroads (see TPCI) and we don't want to loose that.

As for point 4, the new look of the digitalmars.com/d site is a vast improvement on the last one.  It's a great site for DMD, but not for D. What we need is a dprogramming.com marketing site, with examples, tutorials, a beginniner package, and flashy stuff.

~John Demme

There is a post like this one every several days.

I think we need some sort of a notice on the digitalmars page that says "People who want to help polish/improve D follow this link...".

The link would take you to a TODO list of things that need to happen for D to become polished. That way we can channel the enthusiasm to something productive.

Does such a  list already exist?

> What we need is a dprogramming.com marketing site, with examples, tutorials, a beginniner package, and flashy stuff.

I will donate an existing layout or make a new one.

On Tue, 02 May 2006 18:20:45 -0700, nick wrote:

> There is a post like this one every several days.
> 
> I think we need some sort of a notice on the digitalmars page that says "People who want to help polish/improve D follow this link...".
> 
> The link would take you to a TODO list of things that need to happen for D to become polished. That way we can channel the enthusiasm to something productive.
> 
> Does such a  list already exist?

I think one exists in the WIKI4D site, but if not, that is a good place to
set one up.

  http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi

-- 
Derek
(skype: derek.j.parnell)
Melbourne, Australia
"Down with mediocracy!"
3/05/2006 11:57:35 AM

No offense to those running wiki4d, but it looks like an abandoned site from mid 1990s. Anything posted on that site might as well have a huge "don't pay attention to what I'm saying; this is out of date" label on it.

It's unfortunate indeed, because there is some good info there; it just needs a visual update. Last I attempted something in that direction, I was overzealous and apparently offended the man behind wiki4d.


Derek Parnell wrote:
> On Tue, 02 May 2006 18:20:45 -0700, nick wrote:
> 
>> There is a post like this one every several days.
>>
>> I think we need some sort of a notice on the digitalmars page that says "People who want to help polish/improve D follow this link...".
>>
>> The link would take you to a TODO list of things that need to happen for D to become polished. That way we can channel the enthusiasm to something productive.
>>
>> Does such a  list already exist?
> 
> I think one exists in the WIKI4D site, but if not, that is a good place to
> set one up.
> 
>   http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi
> 

On Tue, 02 May 2006 19:38:16 -0700, nick wrote:

> No offense to those running wiki4d, but it looks like an abandoned site from mid 1990s. Anything posted on that site might as well have a huge "don't pay attention to what I'm saying; this is out of date" label on it.
> 
> It's unfortunate indeed, because there is some good info there; it just needs a visual update. Last I attempted something in that direction, I was overzealous and apparently offended the man behind wiki4d.

I totally understand, however one mustn't confuse 'content' with 'form'. And as you say, this site contains some good stuff, it just looks like it couldn't.

I'd also appreciate an improvement to the site's visual format but I still use the site for its content in spite of that. Oh, and by the way, to me it looks more like 1980's vintage that didn't want to bother a UI designer for help.

-- 
Derek
(skype: derek.j.parnell)
Melbourne, Australia
"Down with mediocrity!"
3/05/2006 12:54:57 PM

I would have gladly provided a new layout(the generic tabs on the top,
couple of gradients thing).
The problem is that wiki4d generates (I assume it hasn't changed since I
last looked) code for a website from the 1980s or 1990s. It's not using
divs, spans, etc.

I know nothing of the underlying technology behind wiki4d.

However, I agree with this:

"What we need is a dprogramming.com marketing site, with examples,
tutorials, a beginniner package, and flashy stuff.
~John Demme"

Maybe we don't need flashy stuff, but we need to exude an air of professionalism. Of course, I don't think this really matters until we are approaching D0.8 or so.


Derek Parnell wrote:
> On Tue, 02 May 2006 19:38:16 -0700, nick wrote:
> 
>> No offense to those running wiki4d, but it looks like an abandoned site from mid 1990s. Anything posted on that site might as well have a huge "don't pay attention to what I'm saying; this is out of date" label on it.
>>
>> It's unfortunate indeed, because there is some good info there; it just needs a visual update. Last I attempted something in that direction, I was overzealous and apparently offended the man behind wiki4d.
> 
> I totally understand, however one mustn't confuse 'content' with 'form'. And as you say, this site contains some good stuff, it just looks like it couldn't.
> 
> I'd also appreciate an improvement to the site's visual format but I still use the site for its content in spite of that. Oh, and by the way, to me it looks more like 1980's vintage that didn't want to bother a UI designer for help.
> 

nick wrote:
> I would have gladly provided a new layout(the generic tabs on the top,
> couple of gradients thing).
> The problem is that wiki4d generates (I assume it hasn't changed since I
> last looked) code for a website from the 1980s or 1990s. It's not using
> divs, spans, etc.
> 
> I know nothing of the underlying technology behind wiki4d.
> 
> However, I agree with this:
> 
> "What we need is a dprogramming.com marketing site, with examples,
> tutorials, a beginniner package, and flashy stuff.
> ~John Demme"
> 
> Maybe we don't need flashy stuff, but we need to exude an air of
> professionalism. Of course, I don't think this really matters until we
> are approaching D0.8 or so.
> 
> 
> Derek Parnell wrote:
>> On Tue, 02 May 2006 19:38:16 -0700, nick wrote:
>>
>>> No offense to those running wiki4d, but it looks like an abandoned site
>>> from mid 1990s. Anything posted on that site might as well have a huge
>>> "don't pay attention to what I'm saying; this is out of date" label on it.
>>>
>>> It's unfortunate indeed, because there is some good info there; it just
>>> needs a visual update. Last I attempted something in that direction, I
>>> was overzealous and apparently offended the man behind wiki4d.
>> I totally understand, however one mustn't confuse 'content' with 'form'.
>> And as you say, this site contains some good stuff, it just looks like it
>> couldn't. 
>>
>> I'd also appreciate an improvement to the site's visual format but I still
>> use the site for its content in spite of that. Oh, and by the way, to me it
>> looks more like 1980's vintage that didn't want to bother a UI designer for
>> help.
>>

You understand the version numbers yes?

We are at the 155th revision thus 0.155. If Walter releases a new revision twice a month, it would take 26.875 years to reach 0.8.

-- 
Kyle Furlong // Physics Undergrad, UCSB

"D is going wherever the D community wants it to go." - Walter Bright

nick wrote:
> I would have gladly provided a new layout(the generic tabs on the top,
> couple of gradients thing).
> The problem is that wiki4d generates (I assume it hasn't changed since I
> last looked) code for a website from the 1980s or 1990s. It's not using
> divs, spans, etc.
> 
> I know nothing of the underlying technology behind wiki4d.

It's pretty simple, but it should be powerful enough.

I just changed the template for the whole site to the template that I had been trying out with the DocComments pages.

http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?FrontPage

Does the new template look any better? I can change it back if you don't think it's an improvement.

We can make further changes as well. The template system seems to be pretty flexible. I think my problem is a lack of imagination.

-- 
jcc7