Very cool.  This is the type of design I like, extremely easy to use -- big easy icons -- absouletly no thought required to navigate :).

Charlie

"David Gileadi" <foo@bar.com> wrote in message news:e3ajnh$31ir$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> nick wrote:
>  >> What we need is a dprogramming.com marketing site, with examples,
>  >> tutorials, a beginniner package, and flashy stuff.
>  >
>  > I will donate an existing layout or make a new one.
>
> Here's a mockup I've started, having been thinking much along the same lines as Kyle.  It's loosely based on www.mono-project.com  Hopefully it can help the discussion.
>
> http://img114.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mockup5ey.jpg (forgive the
> imageshack hosting)
>
> Obviously the front page needs a lot more content.  I was thinking that the "What is D?" section should have links to the following:
>
>    - Comparison
>    - Examples
>    - FAQ
>    - Docs
>    - License
>
> I also think there should be a small section before or after giving a quick explanation of what D is, why I should use it, maybe what platforms it works on, etc.
>
> The "What's New" section might contain the latest releases from the changelog as well as any community announcements (maybe culled from d.announce).  Of course this would require someone to maintain the list :)
>
> Finally I beg Walter's forgiveness for modifying the DigitalMars logo. I just think it looks better this way :)
>
> -Dave

Sean Kelly wrote:
> Ideally, a
> website should offer both as options as Ars Technica does.

Impressive site css.  I imagine dsource will be implementing some of these toggles as well.

BA

Brad Anderson wrote:
> Sean Kelly wrote:
>> Ideally, a
>> website should offer both as options as Ars Technica does.
> 
> Impressive site css.  I imagine dsource will be implementing some of these
> toggles as well.
> 
> BA

Try this for a great show of the potential of CSS and separation of content and presentation:
http://www.csszengarden.com/
:)

-- 
Bruno Medeiros - CS/E student
http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?BrunoMedeiros#D

Daniel Keep wrote:
> 
> Kyle Furlong wrote:
>> [snip]
>> You understand the version numbers yes?
>>
>> We are at the 155th revision thus 0.155. If Walter releases a new
>> revision twice a month, it would take 26.875 years to reach 0.8.
>>
> 
> But if 0.155 is the 155th revision, wouldn't that make 0.8 the eighth
> revision?  And thus, wouldn't we have passed that 26 years ago? :P
> 
>   -- Daniel "Not contributing anything, really"
> 

I suppose its ambiguous, as there is no specification. In any case, my point is that .8 is not coming any time soon.

-- 
Kyle Furlong // Physics Undergrad, UCSB

"D is going wherever the D community wants it to go." - Walter Bright

Bruno Medeiros wrote:
> First of all, don't call it "hobbyists" :P  We are all "early adopters", and for most of us D is more than hobby (even if the allocated time is similar). Hobbyism and hobby programs for me is the trivial stuff I write in the Bash shell scripting language (which sucks BTW).
> 
> 
> Kyle Furlong wrote:
>> I'm becoming more and more convinced that D needs a polished presence. How did Java succeed? Marketing. Plain and simple, the first revisions sucked, but got evangelized extremely effectively. How much better, since we have a quality compiler, to market it.
>>
> 
> Matureness must come before marketing.
> Still, early "evangelism", as Walter put it, (which I consider different from marketing) is important and does come before matureness, since attracting a good number of (and an influential set of) early adopters is crucial to achieve matureness and "goodness".
>

How would you quantify this? Then once you do, where would you place DMD?

>>
>> 1. Unified std library which is 100% covered and stable.
>>
>> Aside: I am strongly biased to creating this library out of Ares + Mango. No offense Walter, but Sean and Kris' code is higher quality at this point.
>>
> 
> True, and here is something were a lot of the work could be done independent of Walter (unlike for instance helping with the compiler, which requires significant interaction)
> 
>> 2. Formation of a GUI /team/ to pick and/or develop further a cross platform solution.
>>
>> Aside: It must be a team. DWT is stagnant because Shawn doesnt have time, and no one else understands the code well enough to continue.
>>
> 
> Huh? "Formation of a GUI team"? That doesn't make sense.
> Formation by whom and of whom? You speak as if Walter had control over this issues. Unlike the other points, he hasn't. No one here has authority over the work of the rest of the community, since no one is paying anyone *else* for that work). The only thing Walter can do is "bless" a project he deems more acceptable, which doesn't have much practical effect.
> 
> GUI community development strategies must be considered on the face that the GUI community is a collaborative structure, and not a centralized-authoritative structure
> 
> No one can exert control of the GUI (or any other for that matter) development, but the community *can come* to certain levels of agreement.
> 

While its true that no one person has a *right* to assert authority over anyone else in this context, it may be benificial to self organize into a more centralized team in order to produce higher quality code in a much shorter time span.

Obviously no one can compel anyone else to do anything.

>> 3. Choice of a new mascot/revamp of D-man. Also consider a new name.
>>
>> Aside: I love the name D. But, the benefits of a name bigger than 2 letters are self evident, it should be considered. Also, D-man has served us well. My initial reaction however, when I was first introduced to him, was, "Wow, what a trashy mascot, how uncreative." Now that I'm used to him, hes alright, but I seriously think we need to reconsider.
>>
> 
> A logo is an important marketing and even recognition item, agreed. I just bring a small issue: does the logo necessarily has to an animal/mascot? I'm thinking it doesn't, any type of logo would do.
> 
> 
> 
> 

My idea for the mascot is along the lines of something that will stick in people's heads. So, if a logo can do this, fine. But, in my experience, (which admittedly, is quite small) a mascot has more power to hold itself in a persons mind than a logo.

If D-man does this, fine.

-- 
Kyle Furlong // Physics Undergrad, UCSB

"D is going wherever the D community wants it to go." - Walter Bright

Georg Wrede wrote:
> John Reimer wrote:
>> It is an improvement, but I don't understand why the WordsAreAllRunningTogether for the links.
>>
>> I find that aspect quite ugly.  I've seen that system used in other sites, and I just don't understand why it's done that way in the wiki. Is it a limitation of the Wiki?
> 
> The entire idea of a Wiki is that users (i.e. _the_readers_) do most of the writing. One can't expect them to be computer savvy. At the same time, it is imperative that the texts actually do contain links to other pages, wherever needed. (In other words, links should not remain uncreated just because "it is hard to do".)
> 
> The simplest way to achieve this is, just have page names in CamelCase. Then any word in CamelCase is assumed a link.
> 
> (It's not a matter of technology, it is entirely a matter of what is a simple enough way to create links, so that folks actually get around to doing it!)
> 
> Invent an "easier" way, and you'll do the Wiki culture a big service.


Thanks for the explanation.  I just noticed CamelCase is everywhere in wikidom, with some exceptions (eg, Wikipedia?).

I still think CamelCase looks horrible, despite the ease of use argument (which makes sense).  I notice some links actually use "_" to get around the space problem, with rather inconsistant irregularity.  Perhaps that is still difficult for new users?

I assume that wiki's controlled by core groups of professional or knowledgeable users don't have to use CamelCase then, because, theoretically, they have the skill to implement the links in more eye-pleasing fashion?

On the other hand, it appears that CamelCase in wiki sites has caught on almost as a standard for all users, no matter what their skill level be. That's really unfortunate.

-JJR

In article <e3ascp$dac$1@digitaldaemon.com>, Kyle Furlong says...
>
>Daniel Keep wrote:
>> 
>> Kyle Furlong wrote:
>>> [snip]
>>> You understand the version numbers yes?
>>>
>>> We are at the 155th revision thus 0.155. If Walter releases a new revision twice a month, it would take 26.875 years to reach 0.8.
>>>
>> 
>> But if 0.155 is the 155th revision, wouldn't that make 0.8 the eighth revision?  And thus, wouldn't we have passed that 26 years ago? :P
>> 
>>   -- Daniel "Not contributing anything, really"
>> 
>
>I suppose its ambiguous, as there is no specification. In any case, my point is that .8 is not coming any time soon.

I was under the impression that we skipped from 0.7 to 0.10 (skipping 0.8 and
0.9). ;)

28 Dec 2001: http://www.digitalmars.com/drn-bin/wwwnews?D/2462 0.7 02 Jan 2002: http://www.digitalmars.com/drn-bin/wwwnews?D/2503 0.10

jcc7

charles wrote:
> Very cool.  This is the type of design I like, extremely easy to use -- big
> easy icons -- absouletly no thought required to navigate :).
> 
> Charlie
>
> "David Gileadi" <foo@bar.com> wrote in message
> news:e3ajnh$31ir$1@digitaldaemon.com...
>> nick wrote:
>>  >> What we need is a dprogramming.com marketing site, with examples,
>>  >> tutorials, a beginniner package, and flashy stuff.
>>  >
>>  > I will donate an existing layout or make a new one.
>>
>> Here's a mockup I've started, having been thinking much along the same
>> lines as Kyle.  It's loosely based on www.mono-project.com  Hopefully it
>> can help the discussion.
>>
>> http://img114.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mockup5ey.jpg (forgive the
>> imageshack hosting)
>>
>> Obviously the front page needs a lot more content.  I was thinking that
>> the "What is D?" section should have links to the following:
>>
>>    - Comparison
>>    - Examples
>>    - FAQ
>>    - Docs
>>    - License
>>
>> I also think there should be a small section before or after giving a
>> quick explanation of what D is, why I should use it, maybe what
>> platforms it works on, etc.
>>
>> The "What's New" section might contain the latest releases from the
>> changelog as well as any community announcements (maybe culled from
>> d.announce).  Of course this would require someone to maintain the list :)
>>
>> Finally I beg Walter's forgiveness for modifying the DigitalMars logo.
>> I just think it looks better this way :)
>>
>> -Dave
> 
> 

Agreed - that is great! I like all the ideas posted here recently, but this one is so clutter-free it just invites one to explore further.

An idea for whatever the style outcome - post a link to something like this somewhere, or otherwise a "Sample Code" page. The idea would be to provide people in a hurry (a) nice short example(s) showing some of the primary D features. For example, I would think this would be something C++ coders could quickly scan and be intrigued by:

#!/usr/bin/dmd -run
/* sh style script syntax is supported! */

/* Hello World in D
   To compile:
   dmd hello.d
    or to optimize:
   dmd -O -inline -release hello.d
*/

import std.stdio;

void main(char[][] args)
{
    writefln("Hello World, Reloaded");

    // auto type inference and built-in foreach
    foreach(argc, argv; args)
    {
        // OOP!
        CmdLin cl = new CmdLin(argc, argv);
        // improved printf!!
        writefln(cl.argnum, cl.suffix, " arg: %s", cl.argv);
        // Garbage Collection or explicit memory management!!!
        delete cl;
    }

    // Nested structs, classes and functions!
    struct specs
    {
	    // all vars. automatically initialized
        int count, allocated;
    }

    specs argspecs(char[][] args)
    {
        specs* s = new specs;
        // no need for '->'
        s.count = args.length;
        s.allocated = typeof(args).sizeof; // built-in properties for native types
        foreach(argv; args)
            s.allocated += argv.length * typeof(argv[0]).sizeof;
        return *s;
    }

    // built-in string and common string operations
    writefln("argc = %d, " ~ "allocated = %d",argspecs(args).count,argspecs(args).allocated);
}

class CmdLin
{
    private int _argc;
    private char[] _argv;

public:
    this(int argc, char[] argv)
    {
        _argc = argc;
        _argv = argv;
    }

    int argnum()
    {
        return _argc + 1;
    }

    char[] argv()
    {
        return _argv;
    }

    char[] suffix()
    {
        char[] suffix = "th";
        switch(_argc)
        {
        case 0:
            suffix = "st";
            break;
        case 1:
            suffix = "nd";
            break;
        case 2:
            suffix = "rd";
            break;
        default:
        }
        return suffix;
    }
}

In article <e3ajnh$31ir$1@digitaldaemon.com>, David Gileadi says...
>
>nick wrote:
> >> What we need is a dprogramming.com marketing site, with examples, tutorials, a beginniner package, and flashy stuff.
> >
> > I will donate an existing layout or make a new one.
>
>Here's a mockup I've started, having been thinking much along the same lines as Kyle.  It's loosely based on www.mono-project.com  Hopefully it can help the discussion.
>
>http://img114.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mockup5ey.jpg (forgive the imageshack hosting)

Cool!

>Obviously the front page needs a lot more content.  I was thinking that the "What is D?" section should have links to the following:
>
>   - Comparison
>   - Examples
>   - FAQ
>   - Docs
>   - License

Sounds good.

>I also think there should be a small section before or after giving a quick explanation of what D is, why I should use it, maybe what platforms it works on, etc.

Good idea.

>The "What's New" section might contain the latest releases from the changelog as well as any community announcements (maybe culled from d.announce).  Of course this would require someone to maintain the list :)

Another good idea.

>Finally I beg Walter's forgiveness for modifying the DigitalMars logo. I just think it looks better this way :)

I think it's an improvement, too.

jcc7

In article <e39emr$qo2$1@digitaldaemon.com>, John Reimer says...
>
>Justin C Calvarese wrote:
>> nick wrote:
>>> I would have gladly provided a new layout(the generic tabs on the top,
>>> couple of gradients thing).
>>> The problem is that wiki4d generates (I assume it hasn't changed since I
>>> last looked) code for a website from the 1980s or 1990s. It's not using
>>> divs, spans, etc.
>>>
>>> I know nothing of the underlying technology behind wiki4d.
>> 
>> It's pretty simple, but it should be powerful enough.
>> 
>> I just changed the template for the whole site to the template that I had been trying out with the DocComments pages.
>> 
>> http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?FrontPage
>> 
>> Does the new template look any better? I can change it back if you don't think it's an improvement.
>> 
>> We can make further changes as well. The template system seems to be pretty flexible. I think my problem is a lack of imagination.
>> 
>
>It is an improvement, but I don't understand why the WordsAreAllRunningTogether for the links.
>
>I find that aspect quite ugly.  I've seen that system used in other sites, and I just don't understand why it's done that way in the wiki. Is it a limitation of the Wiki?

It's supposed to be a beneficial feature of the wiki. The links can be renamed, though it takes some more effort.

Is this better now? http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?FrontPage

jcc7