On Mon, 16 Oct 2006 16:40:32 -0700, Bill Baxter <dnewsgroup@billbaxter.com> wrote:

> Knud Sørensen wrote:
>> On Sun, 15 Oct 2006 12:44:03 -0700, Walter Bright wrote:
>>
>>> Jari-Matti Mäkelä wrote:
>>>> Walter is a true compiler expert, but I think he wants to leave the
>>>> development of libraries to those who are more experienced with
>>>> different kinds of frameworks. Besides, he already has more than enough
>>>> work in extending the language and maintaining the compiler.
>>> What I'm mindful of is I endorsed DWT as the official D gui library, which promptly killed it.
>>  What about the library contest I suggested long ago ?? Is that a useful idea?
>> I did never get much feedback on that idea.  http://all-technology.com/eigenpolls/dwishlist/index.php?it=59
>>
>
> I worked at a small software company once where the marketing folks decided to have a big contest.  They advertised it software development magazines and everything.  Top prize was supposed to be like $10,000 cash I think.  In the end, when the deadline came, we counted up all the submissions.  One... two.  That's it.  We got *two* submissions. Granted, they were pretty good, but I think in the end the marketing department decided to cancel the contest and gave the two entrants free copies of our software instead.  I was pretty embarrassed for the whole company.
>
> Anyway, this is just to say, my experience with big prize programming contests for niche software has not been good.  And no matter how cool it is, you have to admit D is still pretty niche.
>
> --bb


I think it's simple. While I don't see much purpose in prizes and contests in specific area of D development (not at this point, at least),  I do think it would be handy to setup donation accounts for developers similar to what sourceforge.net does.  I can say I wouldn't mind contributing some dollars to projects like bud (aka build) as a motivator.  And if there were a standard library development happening, I'd have no inhibitions there either.  Not everybody likes donating, but there are definitely D projects out there that are proving there worth many times over.

-JJR

Derek Parnell wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Oct 2006 11:03:14 -0700, Walter Bright wrote:
> 
>> I'm happy to merge things in, but am reluctant to do so without reviewing the diffs line by line.
> 
> Actually, when I wrote "take Phobos", I really meant "take Phobos". You
> would no longer have *the* sole controlling vote on what goes in or goes
> out of phobos, nor would you have sole control over when new libraries were
> released for general consumptuion. They would in fact be released
> asynchonously from DMD. There would be 'beta' versions around for trying
> our stuff and official releases for people who just needed a standard
> library. Are you willing to give up control of Phobos?

Maybe after 1.0. I'm pretty reluctant to do so earlier. That said, it still doesn't impede anyone else from working on Phobos. An increasing number of my own contributions to it I've been making not just open source, but public domain.

On Mon, 16 Oct 2006 17:16:26 -0700, Walter Bright wrote:

> Derek Parnell wrote:
>> On Mon, 16 Oct 2006 11:03:14 -0700, Walter Bright wrote:
>> 
>>> I'm happy to merge things in, but am reluctant to do so without reviewing the diffs line by line.
>> 
>> Actually, when I wrote "take Phobos", I really meant "take Phobos". You would no longer have *the* sole controlling vote on what goes in or goes out of phobos, nor would you have sole control over when new libraries were released for general consumptuion. They would in fact be released asynchonously from DMD. There would be 'beta' versions around for trying our stuff and official releases for people who just needed a standard library. Are you willing to give up control of Phobos?
> 
> Maybe after 1.0. I'm pretty reluctant to do so earlier.

That's what I thought. I didn't really think that you meant what you said earlier ...

 Derek:
 >>] Are you saying that, for example, you would have no problems with
 >>] Phobos being taken from DigitalMars and moved to DSource so that
 >>] everyone who needed to could get to submit changes to the library
 >>] that would actually be applied.
 Walter:
 >] The license for the Phobos source code certainly allows that, and
 >] that's part of the point of having the license be that way. So no,
 >] I have no problem with that.

> That said, it still doesn't impede anyone else from working on Phobos.

What impedes me is you. The few times I have submitted a Phobos change to you, you have dismissed them as not worthy of the effort. Those responses just pissed me off and I can't be bothered trying too hard to work under that regimen anymore. I'm just now waiting for Phobos to be freed up so my workings can be judged against a wider body of opinion.

-- 
Derek
(skype: derek.j.parnell)
Melbourne, Australia
"Down with mediocrity!"
17/10/2006 10:39:28 AM

John Reimer wrote:
> I think it's simple. While I don't see much purpose in prizes and contests in specific area of D development (not at this point, at least),  I do think it would be handy to setup donation accounts for developers similar to what sourceforge.net does.  I can say I wouldn't mind contributing some dollars to projects like bud (aka build) as a motivator.  And if there were a standard library development happening, I'd have no inhibitions there either.  Not everybody likes donating, but there are definitely D projects out there that are proving there worth many times over.

Does anyone know how effective the sourceforge donations are?

Georg Wrede wrote:
> -- Especially when the D community (as a whole, inlcuding DM) makes it exceptionally hard for the newcomer to ever get a grasp of what is available and what is outdated and where to start looking in the first place.

If you (or anyone else) would like to come up with a "getting started" text, including links for the best libraries, tools, etc., I'd be more than happy to host it on the Digital Mars D site.

Georg Wrede wrote:
>  From experience one knows that some of the "unbelievably hard" things to implement may become just simple after a good night's sleep, or after a nice morning shower some other problem might just "come to you" in a flash. Equally, some of the things slated for immediate release might prove intractable at closer look.

That is so very true. For me, my best ideas and solutions come from jogging, not sitting at the computer. Jogging is my most mentally productive time, by far. I don't know why <g>. If it wasn't, I probably would have given it up out of boredom years ago.

Walter Bright wrote:
> Knud Sørensen wrote:
>> On Sun, 15 Oct 2006 20:58:10 -0500, clayasaurus wrote:
>>
>>> Knud Sørensen wrote:
>>>> What about the library contest I suggested long ago ?? Is that a useful idea?
>>>> I did never get much feedback on that idea.
>>>> http://all-technology.com/eigenpolls/dwishlist/index.php?it=59
>>>>
>>> This is a great idea. I think Walter just needs to encourage library competition while giving good libraries recognition.
>>>
>>> How about a "Top 10 D libraries" page on digitalmars D where the D community votes for the top 10 libraries each month on the newsgroups and then they get a very special recognition on the digitalmars site?
>>
>> Yes, a monthly competition like this is also a good idea.
>>
>> We have several authors on the list maybe we can get them to donate a copy of one of there books for a first prize.
> 
> I've thought about cash prizes and contests. I just had the nagging feeling that the result would be a circus rather than serious development.

I was thinking more towards the grand prize being a spot on the digitalmars top 10 D libraries for the month, I wasn't thinking huge cash prizes or such. This will be no cost to anyone, promote awareness of the best of the D libraries, and promote some friendly competitions and bragging rights.

~ Clay

Walter Bright wrote:
> Georg Wrede wrote:
>>  From experience one knows that some of the "unbelievably hard" things to implement may become just simple after a good night's sleep, or after a nice morning shower some other problem might just "come to you" in a flash. Equally, some of the things slated for immediate release might prove intractable at closer look.
> 
> That is so very true. For me, my best ideas and solutions come from jogging, not sitting at the computer. Jogging is my most mentally productive time, by far. I don't know why <g>. If it wasn't, I probably would have given it up out of boredom years ago.

more blood flow to the head :-P

On Mon, 16 Oct 2006 18:08:57 -0700, Walter Bright <newshound@digitalmars.com> wrote:

> Georg Wrede wrote:
>>  From experience one knows that some of the "unbelievably hard" things to implement may become just simple after a good night's sleep, or after a nice morning shower some other problem might just "come to you" in a flash. Equally, some of the things slated for immediate release might prove intractable at closer look.
>
> That is so very true. For me, my best ideas and solutions come from jogging, not sitting at the computer. Jogging is my most mentally productive time, by far. I don't know why <g>. If it wasn't, I probably would have given it up out of boredom years ago.


Well just be careful that you don't run into a car while you're deep in thought. :(

...Or hopefully you've managed to find a running route away from traffic.

-JJR

Walter Bright wrote:
> Derek Parnell wrote:
>> On Mon, 16 Oct 2006 11:03:14 -0700, Walter Bright wrote:
>>
>>> I'm happy to merge things in, but am reluctant to do so without reviewing the diffs line by line.
>>
>> Actually, when I wrote "take Phobos", I really meant "take Phobos". You
>> would no longer have *the* sole controlling vote on what goes in or goes
>> out of phobos, nor would you have sole control over when new libraries
>> were
>> released for general consumptuion. They would in fact be released
>> asynchonously from DMD. There would be 'beta' versions around for trying
>> our stuff and official releases for people who just needed a standard
>> library. Are you willing to give up control of Phobos?
> 
> Maybe after 1.0. I'm pretty reluctant to do so earlier. That said, it still doesn't impede anyone else from working on Phobos. An increasing number of my own contributions to it I've been making not just open source, but public domain.

is it because of the fact that DMD depend on some of the libraries in phobos? If so, a solution could be found for those libraries? Feature freeze for ..., frozen api, or a phobos without those libraries for starters, ...

roel