Bill Baxter wrote:
> Bill Baxter wrote:
>> freeagle wrote:
>>> Charlie wrote:
>>>> DFL and Entice are really under-appreciated IMO , an awesome piece of work.
>>>
>>> I think this is because the project is hosted at www.dprogramming.com. I'm not saying there's anything bad about it, but I think that first, and probably the last, stop for any beginning D programmer is www.dsource.org. That's why projects at dprogramming don't receive much attention.
>>
>> It looks like a very nice project, but I think the fact that it's Windows-only is the reason for lack of widespread adoption.  Heck I'm a Windows-only user but I won't touch Windows-only libraries.  I value my own freedom to switch platforms at will too much, especially these days with Vista breathing uncomfortably down my neck.   I also value the ability to share with friends who don't use Windows.  So I never really gave DFL a second look.
>>
>> --bb
> 
> Wait, is DFL closed source?  I couldn't find the source anywhere.  That might be another reason for lack of popularity.
> 
> --bb

DFL is most definitely open source.  I know, because I've modified it a few times.

	-- Daniel

-- 
int getRandomNumber()
{
    return 4; // chosen by fair dice roll.
              // guaranteed to be random.
}

http://xkcd.com/

v2sw5+8Yhw5ln4+5pr6OFPma8u6+7Lw4Tm6+7l6+7D i28a2Xs3MSr2e4/6+7t4TNSMb6HTOp5en5g6RAHCP  http://hackerkey.com/

Are even programmers against vista?
Is it because of the price? Or maybe you think it isn't necessary?
You must understand that the real features of vista which are interesting
can't be shown in general commercials, right?

No that I'm a fan.. I don't even run it but I could get excited when I get my new computer.

http://manodesign.spaces.live.com/Blog/cns!1pRsSVBaAuwgFSti-clSJ6Ng!362.entry DirectX 10 , software sound approach

I  am just interested in the why it is that bad that you think because of it to switch?


"Bill Baxter" <dnewsgroup@billbaxter.com> wrote in message news:f0gv1a$2jtf$1@digitalmars.com...
> freeagle wrote:
>> Charlie wrote:
>>> DFL and Entice are really under-appreciated IMO , an awesome piece of work.
>>
>> I think this is because the project is hosted at www.dprogramming.com. I'm not saying there's anything bad about it, but I think that first, and probably the last, stop for any beginning D programmer is www.dsource.org. That's why projects at dprogramming don't receive much attention.
>
> It looks like a very nice project, but I think the fact that it's Windows-only is the reason for lack of widespread adoption.  Heck I'm a Windows-only user but I won't touch Windows-only libraries.  I value my own freedom to switch platforms at will too much, especially these days with Vista breathing uncomfortably down my neck.   I also value the ability to share with friends who don't use Windows.  So I never really gave DFL a second look.
>
> --bb

Saaa wrote:
> Are even programmers against vista?
> Is it because of the price? Or maybe you think it isn't necessary?
> You must understand that the real features of vista which are interesting
> can't be shown in general commercials, right?
> 
> No that I'm a fan.. I don't even run it but I could get excited when I get my new computer.
> 
> http://manodesign.spaces.live.com/Blog/cns!1pRsSVBaAuwgFSti-clSJ6Ng!362.entry DirectX 10 , software sound approach
> 
> I  am just interested in the why it is that bad that you think because of it to switch?
> 
> 
> "Bill Baxter" <dnewsgroup@billbaxter.com> wrote in message news:f0gv1a$2jtf$1@digitalmars.com...
>> freeagle wrote:
>>> Charlie wrote:
>>>> DFL and Entice are really under-appreciated IMO , an awesome piece of work.
>>> I think this is because the project is hosted at www.dprogramming.com. I'm not saying there's anything bad about it, but I think that first, and probably the last, stop for any beginning D programmer is www.dsource.org. That's why projects at dprogramming don't receive much attention.
>> It looks like a very nice project, but I think the fact that it's Windows-only is the reason for lack of widespread adoption.  Heck I'm a Windows-only user but I won't touch Windows-only libraries.  I value my own freedom to switch platforms at will too much, especially these days with Vista breathing uncomfortably down my neck.   I also value the ability to share with friends who don't use Windows.  So I never really gave DFL a second look.
>>
>> --bb

Warning: rant follows.
Summary: Vista sucks.

I don't know about Bill, but I'm never going to be installing Vista for a lot of reasons.

First of all is the DRM crap they've loaded the OS with.  MS has been pushing DRM more and more over the last few years, but this is going too far.  I absolutely refuse to support anything designed specifically to take away control over my own machine (also a reason why I will never buy a Mac so long as they have TPM chips in them).  See http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.html

Let's also not forget that their shiny new DRM garbage also means all the cool stuff my Creative sound card does is worthless.

Second is the fact that Vista is more bloated than Mr. Creosote[1] from The Meaning of Life.  Even if you turn off all the shiny flashy bling-bling, it still sucks down resources for them.  I neither want nor need all this garbage; I suffer more than enough aggravation from XP's "features" to want to have to deal with even more crap.

Small example: whenever a system-tray "bubble" pops up, it locks the task bar in the shown position, and you can't get it to go away until you actually click on the icon that showed the bubble.  I mean, what was the point of putting a close button on the bubble if it's going to pester you until you click on it anyway?!

Also, as a programmer, I'm seriously pissed off with the new stuff in Vista.  I mean, first they bring out .NET with SWForms, then almost immediately deprecate it for WPF.  How long before they bring out something else new that I need to re-learn?  Bugger it; I'm sticking to cross platform toolkits from now on, no exceptions.

Finally is the fact that anything Vista can do, Linux can already do, and do it better.  I mean, the marketing push for Vista has been "The Wow starts Now": have you ever seen Beryl?  That thing completely blows Vista and OSX out of the water in terms of how shiny it is.

Basically, I'm just completely fed up with Microsoft both as a user and as a developer.  Both myself and my parents been paying the MS tax and fighting Windows for over a decade now, and we're not playing their game any more.  Screw 'em.

	-- Daniel

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._Creosote

-- 
int getRandomNumber()
{
    return 4; // chosen by fair dice roll.
              // guaranteed to be random.
}

http://xkcd.com/

v2sw5+8Yhw5ln4+5pr6OFPma8u6+7Lw4Tm6+7l6+7D i28a2Xs3MSr2e4/6+7t4TNSMb6HTOp5en5g6RAHCP  http://hackerkey.com/

I'm not sure this is the best place, my fault...

And I was thinking about writing a big reply, but as this is not the place :D

DRM doesn't bother me really, I won't use it unless I really need to buy
media which uses it. (I'll even pay for it, I don't care about the extra
100?euro)
I need Photoshop CS3, stopping me to talk like I know anything about Linux
:D (except that its colour management isn't all that)

I didn't hear anything about drm being the cause of crappy creative drivers,
I thought it was this:
http://www.openal.org/openal_vista.html

DirectX 10 is really great and it really seems to be made for the hardware
iso the other way around.
I think http://channel9.msdn.com/Showpost.aspx?postid=146749 gives really
good examples of the same new approach.
(Its an interesting talk in itself although being a tad long ;)
These small differences are really hard to see and extremely hard to
market...
Like HyperThreading: Its not always faster and even slower at times, but
talking about system responsiveness it beats a single core without a doubt.

I didn't know where to move this discussion. But I would like to know the
ideas of those who know more than me...
The choice of OS is important enough.


"Daniel Keep" <daniel.keep.lists@gmail.com> wrote in message news:f0k65t$2evs$1@digitalmars.com...
>
>
> Saaa wrote:
>> Are even programmers against vista?
>> Is it because of the price? Or maybe you think it isn't necessary?
>> You must understand that the real features of vista which are interesting
>> can't be shown in general commercials, right?
>>
>> No that I'm a fan.. I don't even run it but I could get excited when I
>> get
>> my new computer.
>>
>> http://manodesign.spaces.live.com/Blog/cns!1pRsSVBaAuwgFSti-clSJ6Ng!362.entry DirectX 10 , software sound approach
>>
>> I  am just interested in the why it is that bad that you think because of
>> it
>> to switch?
>>
>>
>> "Bill Baxter" <dnewsgroup@billbaxter.com> wrote in message news:f0gv1a$2jtf$1@digitalmars.com...
>>> freeagle wrote:
>>>> Charlie wrote:
>>>>> DFL and Entice are really under-appreciated IMO , an awesome piece of work.
>>>> I think this is because the project is hosted at www.dprogramming.com.
>>>> I'm not saying there's anything bad about it, but I think that first,
>>>> and
>>>> probably the last, stop for any beginning D programmer is
>>>> www.dsource.org. That's why projects at dprogramming don't receive much
>>>> attention.
>>> It looks like a very nice project, but I think the fact that it's Windows-only is the reason for lack of widespread adoption.  Heck I'm a Windows-only user but I won't touch Windows-only libraries.  I value my own freedom to switch platforms at will too much, especially these days with Vista breathing uncomfortably down my neck.   I also value the ability to share with friends who don't use Windows.  So I never really gave DFL a second look.
>>>
>>> --bb
>
> Warning: rant follows.
> Summary: Vista sucks.
>
> I don't know about Bill, but I'm never going to be installing Vista for a lot of reasons.
>
> First of all is the DRM crap they've loaded the OS with.  MS has been pushing DRM more and more over the last few years, but this is going too far.  I absolutely refuse to support anything designed specifically to take away control over my own machine (also a reason why I will never buy a Mac so long as they have TPM chips in them).  See http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.html
>
> Let's also not forget that their shiny new DRM garbage also means all the cool stuff my Creative sound card does is worthless.
>
> Second is the fact that Vista is more bloated than Mr. Creosote[1] from The Meaning of Life.  Even if you turn off all the shiny flashy bling-bling, it still sucks down resources for them.  I neither want nor need all this garbage; I suffer more than enough aggravation from XP's "features" to want to have to deal with even more crap.
>
> Small example: whenever a system-tray "bubble" pops up, it locks the task bar in the shown position, and you can't get it to go away until you actually click on the icon that showed the bubble.  I mean, what was the point of putting a close button on the bubble if it's going to pester you until you click on it anyway?!
>
> Also, as a programmer, I'm seriously pissed off with the new stuff in Vista.  I mean, first they bring out .NET with SWForms, then almost immediately deprecate it for WPF.  How long before they bring out something else new that I need to re-learn?  Bugger it; I'm sticking to cross platform toolkits from now on, no exceptions.
>
> Finally is the fact that anything Vista can do, Linux can already do, and do it better.  I mean, the marketing push for Vista has been "The Wow starts Now": have you ever seen Beryl?  That thing completely blows Vista and OSX out of the water in terms of how shiny it is.
>
> Basically, I'm just completely fed up with Microsoft both as a user and as a developer.  Both myself and my parents been paying the MS tax and fighting Windows for over a decade now, and we're not playing their game any more.  Screw 'em.
>
> -- Daniel
>
> [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._Creosote
>
> -- 
> int getRandomNumber()
> {
>    return 4; // chosen by fair dice roll.
>              // guaranteed to be random.
> }
>
> http://xkcd.com/
>
> v2sw5+8Yhw5ln4+5pr6OFPma8u6+7Lw4Tm6+7l6+7D i28a2Xs3MSr2e4/6+7t4TNSMb6HTOp5en5g6RAHCP  http://hackerkey.com/

Daniel Keep wrote:
> 
> Saaa wrote:
>> Are even programmers against vista?
>> Is it because of the price? Or maybe you think it isn't necessary?
>> You must understand that the real features of vista which are interesting can't be shown in general commercials, right?
>>
>> No that I'm a fan.. I don't even run it but I could get excited when I get my new computer.
>>
>> http://manodesign.spaces.live.com/Blog/cns!1pRsSVBaAuwgFSti-clSJ6Ng!362.entry
>> DirectX 10 , software sound approach
>>
>> I  am just interested in the why it is that bad that you think because of it to switch?
>>
>>
>> "Bill Baxter" <dnewsgroup@billbaxter.com> wrote in message news:f0gv1a$2jtf$1@digitalmars.com...
>>> freeagle wrote:
>>>> Charlie wrote:
>>>>> DFL and Entice are really under-appreciated IMO , an awesome piece of work.
>>>> I think this is because the project is hosted at www.dprogramming.com. I'm not saying there's anything bad about it, but I think that first, and probably the last, stop for any beginning D programmer is www.dsource.org. That's why projects at dprogramming don't receive much attention.
>>> It looks like a very nice project, but I think the fact that it's Windows-only is the reason for lack of widespread adoption.  Heck I'm a Windows-only user but I won't touch Windows-only libraries.  I value my own freedom to switch platforms at will too much, especially these days with Vista breathing uncomfortably down my neck.   I also value the ability to share with friends who don't use Windows.  So I never really gave DFL a second look.
>>>
>>> --bb 
> 
> Warning: rant follows.
> Summary: Vista sucks.
> 
> I don't know about Bill, but I'm never going to be installing Vista for
> a lot of reasons.

I'm not nearly as opposed to Vista as you seem to be, but I will say I run XP with the "Classic Theme" because I'm not really into glitzy title bars sucking up all my resources and draining my battery life.

I don't know much about the DRM stuff in Vista, but all the buzz is that it's terrible and going to eat your babies.  I don't know about that, but it's pretty clear that at best it does *nothing* to make my experience as a user better.

But the thing that really pissed me off about Vista was their announcement early on that OpenGL was going to be a second class citizen.  Apparently it's been fixed due to the *vehement* complaints from users and vendors alike.  But that's the kind of crap Microsoft is always trying to pull.  They were telling everyone "So sorry, but it's technically impossible for OpenGL to work the way it does in XP.  Please use DX10 from now on." Apparently it wasn't as impossible as they claimed, and I'm still wary.

--bb

Saaa wrote:
> I didn't hear anything about drm being the cause of crappy creative drivers,
> I thought it was this:
> http://www.openal.org/openal_vista.html

Basically, MS changed the whole audio stack over to software-only and just uses the soundcard as a DAC *because* of the DRM stuff.  DRM isn't the technical reason why soundcard's got demoted, but it *is* the motivation.

> DirectX 10 is really great and it really seems to be made for the hardware
> iso the other way around.
> I think http://channel9.msdn.com/Showpost.aspx?postid=146749 gives really
> good examples of the same new approach.
> (Its an interesting talk in itself although being a tad long ;)
> These small differences are really hard to see and extremely hard to
> market...
> Like HyperThreading: Its not always faster and even slower at times, but
> talking about system responsiveness it beats a single core without a doubt.

Yeah, but if I write for DX10, it runs on... Vista.  Only.  Not even XP.
  When I found out that Alan Wake was Vista only, I was *seriously*
pissed off.  I was *really* looking forward to that after Max Payne 1
and 2.  I'm not going to forgive Microsoft for that one easily.

As for development, I think I'll just wait for OpenGL 3.0 (I think it's 3.0) which will run on pretty much everything, and IIRC be pretty damn close to DX10 anyway.  And anything that doesn't run OpenGL will probably run ES :P

> I didn't know where to move this discussion. But I would like to know the
> ideas of those who know more than me...
> The choice of OS is important enough.

Yeah; threads on these NGs tend to get off track sometimes.  Maybe we should just make a digitalmars.D.offtopic group :P

	-- Daniel

-- 
int getRandomNumber()
{
    return 4; // chosen by fair dice roll.
              // guaranteed to be random.
}

http://xkcd.com/

v2sw5+8Yhw5ln4+5pr6OFPma8u6+7Lw4Tm6+7l6+7D i28a2Xs3MSr2e4/6+7t4TNSMb6HTOp5en5g6RAHCP  http://hackerkey.com/

>
> But the thing that really pissed me off about Vista was their announcement early on that OpenGL was going to be a second class citizen.  Apparently it's been fixed due to the *vehement* complaints from users and vendors alike.  But that's the kind of crap Microsoft is always trying to pull. They were telling everyone "So sorry, but it's technically impossible for OpenGL to work the way it does in XP.  Please use DX10 from now on." Apparently it wasn't as impossible as they claimed, and I'm still wary.
>

This isn't really true, it went like this:

Microsoft says it will implement it ui in dx10, thus making it impossible to
directly support OpenGL in a window.
Media hears about this and claims microsoft will drop OpenGL support.
OpenGL would be supported like wine handles dx  from the beginning: Its not
an emulator :D
So yes it is technically impossible to let OpenGl work in a window like in
xp.

Saaa wrote:
>> But the thing that really pissed me off about Vista was their announcement early on that OpenGL was going to be a second class citizen.  Apparently it's been fixed due to the *vehement* complaints from users and vendors alike.  But that's the kind of crap Microsoft is always trying to pull. They were telling everyone "So sorry, but it's technically impossible for OpenGL to work the way it does in XP.  Please use DX10 from now on." Apparently it wasn't as impossible as they claimed, and I'm still wary.
>>
> 
> This isn't really true, it went like this:
> 
> Microsoft says it will implement it ui in dx10, thus making it impossible to directly support OpenGL in a window.
> Media hears about this and claims microsoft will drop OpenGL support.
> OpenGL would be supported like wine handles dx  from the beginning: Its not an emulator :D
> So yes it is technically impossible to let OpenGl work in a window like in xp. 

Except from what I understand, ultimately they got it so it _does_ work in a window just like it does in XP:

Found this from a quick search:
http://blogs.msdn.com/winperf/archive/2007/04/04/opengl-and-windows-vista.aspx
"""
Another thing that has left a lot of people confused has been around OpenGL applications and how they work with the new desktop composition system, called DWM. DWM is implemented using Direct3D 9, and as such it was originally thought that OpenGL applications could not interoperate with DWM and DWM would need to shut down in the presence of an OpenGL application. This is not the case. Windows Vista provides a mechanism for hardware vendors to use to integrate an OpenGL application with DWM, which acts in the exact same manner as D3D9 and GDI integration with DWM via shared surfaces (a new feature of WDDM).
"""

So in the end it sounds like all's right with the world.  Except this lingering bad taste in my mouth.  Even if they didn't do it this time, it shows that Microsoft is willing to make OpenGL (and by extension any not-invented-here API) a 2nd class citizen at the drop of a hat.

--bb

Saaa wrote:
> Are even programmers against vista?
> Is it because of the price? Or maybe you think it isn't necessary?
> You must understand that the real features of vista which are interesting
> can't be shown in general commercials, right?

No, but please don't think you can force people to think the same way as you do.

There are several reasons not to always use the newest version of Windows. Maybe the biggest (from the developer POV) are compatibility issues. People start to develop Vista-only apps with the new shiny dev tools. Simply great, now everyone has to convert.

Sure it has interesting 'features' like Aero (which is a bad joke compared to Beryl), but you know, some people really don't appreciate the arbitrary limits the OS introduces - like maximum number of network sessions < n (where n is a relatively small number, forcing you to buy the most expensive Vista version if you do networking stuff), picture quality of video clips on non-HDCP displays is max a x b pixels. Then it phones home, forces to register new hardware, forces to use WMP, WMA, standards-wise retarded IE7, etc.

Now if you think these are features, please take a look at any other OS out there. Maybe you will notice the feeling that you're not being held hostage anymore.

>
> Except from what I understand, ultimately they got it so it _does_ work in a window just like it does in XP:
>
> Found this from a quick search:
> http://blogs.msdn.com/winperf/archive/2007/04/04/opengl-and-windows-vista.aspx
> """
> Another thing that has left a lot of people confused has been around
> OpenGL applications and how they work with the new desktop composition
> system, called DWM. DWM is implemented using Direct3D 9, and as such it
> was originally thought that OpenGL applications could not interoperate
> with DWM and DWM would need to shut down in the presence of an OpenGL
> application. This is not the case. Windows Vista provides a mechanism for
> hardware vendors to use to integrate an OpenGL application with DWM, which
> acts in the exact same manner as D3D9 and GDI integration with DWM via
> shared surfaces (a new feature of WDDM).
> """
>
> So in the end it sounds like all's right with the world.  Except this lingering bad taste in my mouth.  Even if they didn't do it this time, it shows that Microsoft is willing to make OpenGL (and by extension any not-invented-here API) a 2nd class citizen at the drop of a hat.
>
> --bb

That it lingers a bitter taste in your mouth is a good example of how
microsoft is looked at :)
How does 'making everything work nicely even though they didn't have to'
make you think they were willing to make OpenGL a 2th class citizen?
The whole confusion started when microsoft announced the use of dx10 for the
ui and people expecting they would probably drop OpenGL as this seemed the
easiest option for microsoft.
You can't expect them to use OpenGL as obviously microsoft thinks dx10 is
best..
And in the end it still doesn't work like in XP: it is like wine does dx:
translating all calls.