On 2013-09-02 19:56, H. S. Teoh wrote:

> Well, personally I like to structure my code so that such big files
> don't happen. :) But then again, there's *cough*std.algorithm*ahem*...
>
> But I have to say that even with overly-large files, vim's concept of
> using search to find stuff instead of scrolling and trying to find
> things visually, helps one get into a mindset that makes navigating
> large source files more manageable. I used to be a big fan of visual
> navigation -- pgUp, pgDn, paragraph up, paragraph down, etc., but beyond
> 500 lines or so, they quickly become impractical. Having a 1-key search
> function (that doesn't involve popups and other such annoyances) with
> reversible direction is a far superior approach. It also saves a LOT of
> keystrokes spent navigating horizontally when trying to reach a specific
> point on a line: no need to hit left/right keys 40 times or move your
> hand to the mouse and back, just search for a pair of characters (3-4
> keystrokes) and you're exactly where you need to be. It took me a while
> to get used to this mode of navigation, but I found it far superior to
> whatever it was I used to do.

I really like the fuzzy search in TextMate. One hotkey for files and one for classes/functions in the current file. If I don't type anything I get the full list, which gives a nice overview of a file. Although it's only names, no signatures.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg

On 2013-09-02 19:29, Walter Bright wrote:

> I don't know if this is an IDE feature or not, but I've often thought of
> adding a command to my editor (MicroEmacs) to collapse/expand function
> bodies. This would make it convenient to navigate larger files - just
> collapse, move to the function you want to examine, then expand. It
> would also mitigate the issue you have. I theorize that VS doesn't have
> such a feature? Maybe IDEs are solving the wrong problem? :-)
>
> One that collapses out the comments would be great, too, as I've found
> one downside of Ddoc is it can get hard to find the code amongst the doc
> comments.

Most IDE's and even simpler text editors supports this. It's called "code folding". It usually both work for class/function bodies and comments.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg

On Monday, 2 September 2013 at 05:41:50 UTC, Manu wrote:
> Would you believe that you can't watch Game of Thrones in Australia unless
> you pay at least $80/month for a foxtel (cable tv) subscription? And they
> wonder why all the statistics appear to show that Australians are the worst
> media pirates on earth...

It's the same in the US.

On Monday, 2 September 2013 at 13:46:33 UTC, Manu wrote:
> On 2 September 2013 21:37, Jos van Uden <usenet@fwend.com> wrote:
>
>> On 1-9-2013 20:00, bearophile wrote:
>>
>>> Manu:
>>>
>>>  Seriously, how do you quickly read and understand the API through the
>>>> noise?
>>>>
>>>
>>> The noise increases if you have to repeat the class name for each method
>>> :-)
>>>
>>
>> +1
>>
>
> Really? You both think seeing the function signature a second time at the
> definition is 'noisy' when compared to massive blocks of arbitrarily
> indented function body code consuming the entire class definition, and
> completely breaking up your code window?
> A few function bodies and you can't see anything anymore. You have to
> scroll miles to get an overview of the class, and try and remember each
> function header along the way as you scroll by; you can never digest it
> cleanly in one place.
> My memory's not that good... So you end up scrolling up and down and up and
> down and up and down, and then inevitably, get off your arse, walk over,
> and interrupt the guy that wrote it.
> That's a waste of my time, it's a waste of their time, and in an office
> environment, it's a waste of money.
>
> So, I find it extremely useful being able to see the members and functions
> available listed in a row all together. I can quickly gather a fairly
> complete mental picture.
> Everyone on the weekend agreed with me, none of us could immediately
> understand the classes we were working with. Productivity being the key
> element in our exercise, and it demonstrably impacted our productivity.
> But whatever. I just threw it in there because it was a recurring topic,
> and I thought it was worth mentioning.

I think there is a way to please both sides.

I Eiffel there is a (standard) way to show only the definition and/or the interface of a class. It shouldn't be much of a work to have the D compiler (or some utility, but that'd be considerably more work) spit out those, too.

While I don't agree with Manu's wish to handle D classes C++ style I do quite well see the value of a clean definition skeletton/API/interface overview.

A+ -R

On 9/2/2013 11:21 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
> On 2013-09-02 19:29, Walter Bright wrote:
>
>> I don't know if this is an IDE feature or not, but I've often thought of
>> adding a command to my editor (MicroEmacs) to collapse/expand function
>> bodies. This would make it convenient to navigate larger files - just
>> collapse, move to the function you want to examine, then expand. It
>> would also mitigate the issue you have. I theorize that VS doesn't have
>> such a feature? Maybe IDEs are solving the wrong problem? :-)
> Most IDE's and even simpler text editors supports this. It's called "code
> folding". It usually both work for class/function bodies and comments.

So, Manu, this puzzles me as you are an experienced IDE user - why doesn't this resolve that issue for you?

On 9/2/2013 8:06 AM, deadalnix wrote:
> For real. Just imagine that most countries are as bad as Australia, but not
> English speaking, and you get the idea. I experienced France and Denmark, and
> both are worst (Netherland seems better).

Well, here we don't get Danish TV shows, either, in any manner.

And I find it baffling as to why. They're just leaving easy money on the table by not doing it. Ditto for the TV shows from every other country. Wouldn't it be great if in Seattle you could tune into the Moscow Evening News, or the Rwanda TV station? Why the heck not?

Recently, PBS started a Roku channel where they show PBS shows for free. I eagerly signed up for it, and was very disappointed that there's only a handful of shows on it. Even worse, when they add a new show, they expire an older one.

Fer gawd's sake, why not put their entire freakin' back catalog on it?

For example, there's a "sampling" of a few of Julia Childs' shows from the 60's. Why not put them all on?

On 9/2/2013 11:22 AM, Brad Anderson wrote:
> On Monday, 2 September 2013 at 05:41:50 UTC, Manu wrote:
>> Would you believe that you can't watch Game of Thrones in Australia unless
>> you pay at least $80/month for a foxtel (cable tv) subscription? And they
>> wonder why all the statistics appear to show that Australians are the worst
>> media pirates on earth...
>
> It's the same in the US.

I'd be more upset if I couldn't watch Breaking Bad!

On 9/2/2013 6:55 AM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:
> We've already discussed this, we already have a new wiki that we've
> picked and it's great, and bugzilla kicks the pants out of anything
> github has to offer. And who can even rely on github features, when
> they create and remove features on a whim. E.g. user messaging,
> downloads.


Yeah, they pulled the rug out from us on the downloads. I'd even pay them money for that feature.

On 9/2/2013 7:15 AM, Manu wrote:
> On 2 September 2013 23:50, Andrej Mitrovic <andrej.mitrovich@gmail.com
> <mailto:andrej.mitrovich@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     On 9/2/13, Manu <turkeyman@gmail.com <mailto:turkeyman@gmail.com>> wrote:
>      > But I still barely see this as an inconvenience when compared to not being
>      > able to read a class definition.
>
>     How about not being able to read the include paths in VS? I'm talking
>     about this:
>
>     http://i.stack.imgur.com/0cTZG.png
>
>     You can view 2 lines at a time. After almost 20 years they still
>     haven't fixed this. Where is their core dev team that should make the
>     IDE experience great?
>
>
> Classic.

It is classic. Scott Meyers did a presentation on that, calling it the "keyhole" interface, because it shows the view as if you looked at the data through a keyhole.

Sometimes I defeat the keyhole by doing a "select all" in it, and then pasting it into notepad. I do the reverse, too: if the text entry box is only an inch square (some companies do this), I'll compose the message in notepad then cut&paste it into the keyhole.

On 9/2/2013 2:54 AM, Iain Buclaw wrote:
> On 2 September 2013 10:18, Robert Schadek <realburner@gmx.de> wrote:
>> Alternatively maybe we should allow unregistered user bug reports, but
>> use a captcha or something to fight spam. I don't know how doable this
>> is. Some other projects use this system (e.g. Tcl).

Please, no. The barrier is already very low, and there should be at least minimal friction so we don't get "I'm drunk tonight" bug reports. Turning cookies on in your browser isn't that hard.

>> Migrating Bugzilla to Github issues might be a start.
>> https://github.com/rowanj/BugzillaMigrate helps with this task. And while
>> we're at it, lets also move the wiki to github.
>
> Or lets not. :o)
>

Yeah, I think we'd have a revolt here if we tried that.