On 2 September 2013 21:37, Jos van Uden <usenet@fwend.com> wrote:

> On 1-9-2013 20:00, bearophile wrote:
>
>> Manu:
>>
>>  Seriously, how do you quickly read and understand the API through the
>>> noise?
>>>
>>
>> The noise increases if you have to repeat the class name for each method :-)
>>
>
> +1
>

Really? You both think seeing the function signature a second time at the
definition is 'noisy' when compared to massive blocks of arbitrarily
indented function body code consuming the entire class definition, and
completely breaking up your code window?
A few function bodies and you can't see anything anymore. You have to
scroll miles to get an overview of the class, and try and remember each
function header along the way as you scroll by; you can never digest it
cleanly in one place.
My memory's not that good... So you end up scrolling up and down and up and
down and up and down, and then inevitably, get off your arse, walk over,
and interrupt the guy that wrote it.
That's a waste of my time, it's a waste of their time, and in an office
environment, it's a waste of money.

So, I find it extremely useful being able to see the members and functions
available listed in a row all together. I can quickly gather a fairly
complete mental picture.
Everyone on the weekend agreed with me, none of us could immediately
understand the classes we were working with. Productivity being the key
element in our exercise, and it demonstrably impacted our productivity.
But whatever. I just threw it in there because it was a recurring topic,
and I thought it was worth mentioning.

On 9/2/13, Manu <turkeyman@gmail.com> wrote:
> But I still barely see this as an inconvenience when compared to not being able to read a class definition.

How about not being able to read the include paths in VS? I'm talking about this:

http://i.stack.imgur.com/0cTZG.png

You can view 2 lines at a time. After almost 20 years they still haven't fixed this. Where is their core dev team that should make the IDE experience great?

On 9/2/13, Robert Schadek <realburner@gmx.de> wrote:
> Migrating Bugzilla to Github issues might be a start. https://github.com/rowanj/BugzillaMigrate helps with this task. And while we're at it, lets also move the wiki to github.

We've already discussed this, we already have a new wiki that we've picked and it's great, and bugzilla kicks the pants out of anything github has to offer. And who can even rely on github features, when they create and remove features on a whim. E.g. user messaging, downloads.

On 2 September 2013 23:50, Andrej Mitrovic <andrej.mitrovich@gmail.com>wrote:

> On 9/2/13, Manu <turkeyman@gmail.com> wrote:
> > But I still barely see this as an inconvenience when compared to not
> being
> > able to read a class definition.
>
> How about not being able to read the include paths in VS? I'm talking about this:
>
> http://i.stack.imgur.com/0cTZG.png
>
> You can view 2 lines at a time. After almost 20 years they still haven't fixed this. Where is their core dev team that should make the IDE experience great?
>

Classic. Or the one where the find window gets wider and wider every time you open it, until it's bigger than the screen...

Contrary to how it may seem, I don't actually love Visual Studio as hard as
you may think. I'd love for MonoDevelop perhaps to supersede it... but it's
just not there yet. Not by a long shot.
MS are doing their best to ruin VS with every revision. Myself and most VS
users I know tend to only update maybe 5 years after new releases, when
they're forced to because someone pulled support for older versions.

For me, I absolutely will not work without a symbolic debugger, and the VS experience is basically unparalleled there. It's also industry standard, so whether I like it or not, that's what I use, and I've adapted over many years.

On 9/2/13, Manu <turkeyman@gmail.com> wrote:
> Contrary to how it may seem, I don't actually love Visual Studio as hard as you may think. I'd love for MonoDevelop perhaps to supersede it... but it's just not there yet. Not by a long shot.

Well, the way I see it if any of us were to work on an IDE, it would really have to be an open-source one, and preferably written in D.

> For me, I absolutely will not work without a symbolic debugger, and the VS experience is basically unparalleled there. It's also industry standard, so whether I like it or not, that's what I use, and I've adapted over many years.

I can understand that, especially the debugging part. That's pretty much the most highlighted feature anytime anyone talks about why they use VS.

On 2-9-2013 15:46, Manu wrote:
> On 2 September 2013 21:37, Jos van Uden <usenet@fwend.com <mailto:usenet@fwend.com>> wrote:
>
>     On 1-9-2013 20:00, bearophile wrote:
>
>         Manu:
>
>             Seriously, how do you quickly read and understand the API through the noise?
>
>
>         The noise increases if you have to repeat the class name for each method :-)
>
>
>     +1
>
>
> Really? You both think seeing the function signature a second time at the definition is 'noisy' when compared to massive blocks of arbitrarily indented function body code consuming the entire class definition, and completely breaking up your code window?
> A few function bodies and you can't see anything anymore. You have to scroll miles to get an overview of the class, and try and remember each function header along the way as you scroll by; you can never digest it cleanly in one place.
> My memory's not that good... So you end up scrolling up and down and up and down and up and down, and then inevitably, get off your arse, walk over, and interrupt the guy that wrote it.
> That's a waste of my time, it's a waste of their time, and in an office environment, it's a waste of money.
>
> So, I find it extremely useful being able to see the members and functions available listed in a row all together. I can quickly gather a fairly complete mental picture.
> Everyone on the weekend agreed with me, none of us could immediately understand the classes we were working with. Productivity being the key element in our exercise, and it demonstrably impacted our productivity.

Most editors support a navigation view. Then you can easily see the structure of the class.
And then there's the documentation.

On Monday, 2 September 2013 at 13:20:52 UTC, Manu wrote:
> On 2 September 2013 17:39, deadalnix <deadalnix@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Monday, 2 September 2013 at 05:41:50 UTC, Manu wrote:
>>
>>> Would you believe that you can't watch Game of Thrones in Australia unless
>>> you pay at least $80/month for a foxtel (cable tv) subscription? And they
>>> wonder why all the statistics appear to show that Australians are the
>>> worst
>>> media pirates on earth...
>>>
>>
>> Dude, you can't watch it in most countries, even paying. And that
>> isn't specific to game of throne, the same apply for most program
>> that you watch FOR FREE.
>>
>
> For reals?
> But we're an English speaking country with super close relations with
> America. We should surely be able to watch the most popular TV show in the
> world here..

For real. Just imagine that most countries are as bad as Australia, but not English speaking, and you get the idea. I experienced France and Denmark, and both are worst (Netherland seems better).

On Mon, Sep 02, 2013 at 11:46:21PM +1000, Manu wrote:
[...]
> Really? You both think seeing the function signature a second time at
> the definition is 'noisy' when compared to massive blocks of
> arbitrarily indented function body code consuming the entire class
> definition, and completely breaking up your code window?
> A few function bodies and you can't see anything anymore. You have to
> scroll miles to get an overview of the class, and try and remember
> each function header along the way as you scroll by; you can never
> digest it cleanly in one place.
[[...]

In vim, you just sit the cursor on the opening '{' and press '%', and behold!  the next method in the list! :)  Or install the D syntax highlighting files and have vim automatically fold function bodies for you.

OK, excuse the vim fanboyism, but I think any serious D IDE ought to have this kind of functionality to ease navigation through source code. Scrollbars are so last century. (Not to mention totally worthless when dealing with 10,000-line files when the bar is 1 pixel high and scrolling by 1 pixel maps to 5 pages -- totally worthless for navigation.)


T

-- 
My program has no bugs! Only undocumented features...

On 9/2/13, H. S. Teoh <hsteoh@quickfur.ath.cx> wrote:
> In vim, you just sit the cursor on the opening '{' and press '%', and behold!  the next method in the list! :)  Or install the D syntax highlighting files and have vim automatically fold function bodies for you.

Yeah Vim is great. But I stopped using it since it kept flickering when I resized the window (on win32), it's really nasty when the screen flashes like that. Maybe they'll fix the bug so I can get back to using it..

On Monday, 2 September 2013 at 03:14:38 UTC, Manu wrote:
> On 2 September 2013 04:00, bearophile <bearophileHUGS@lycos.com> wrote:
>
>> Manu:
>>
>>
>>  Seriously, how do you quickly read and understand the API through the
>>> noise?
>>>
>>
>> The noise increases if you have to repeat the class name for each method
>> :-)
>>
>
> Except that you can _read the class definition_.
>
> Look, I'm just giving an account of the collective experience from our
> weekend. None of us could find anything easily in each others classes, or
> quickly get a reasonable overview of it's design and how it worked.
> This leads to needless conversations, asking the other person about it, and
> all those questions that I should be able to understand at a glance.
> This WILL affect productivity in the office.
>
> The reason was that functions were polluting the class declaration. 9 times
> out of 10, when I look at a class declaration, I want to know what it is,
> what it has, and what it can do.

Code folding? It's a pretty standard feature of most editors since forever.