On 04/09/2011 09:27 PM, dsimcha wrote:
> On 4/9/2011 10:22 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
>> On 04/09/2011 08:31 PM, dsimcha wrote:
>>> On 4/9/2011 7:56 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
>>>> I think the article's title is missing a comma btw.
>>>>
>>>> Andrei
>>>
>>> Where?
>>
>> Where could it ever be? After "parallelism".
>>
>> Andrei
>
> Actually, I specifically remember learning about this grammar rule in
> middle school. When listing stuff, the comma before the "and" is
> optional. Putting it and not putting it are both correct.

I see. I go by "Bugs in Writing" (awesome book) and Strunk/White. They both recommend the comma, no ifs and buts (hard for me to get used to because in Romanian that comma is _never_ correct).

Just googled it now, it's quite a story. Found among other things a Wikipedia page dedicated entirely to the topic! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma

Above all, it's your article, and one great thing about that is you get to decide everything about it. A great feeling!


Andrei

== Quote from Andrei Alexandrescu (SeeWebsiteForEmail@erdani.org)'s
> Just googled it now, it's quite a story. Found among other things a
> Wikipedia page dedicated entirely to the topic!
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma
> Above all, it's your article, and one great thing about that is you get
> to decide everything about it. A great feeling!
> Andrei

Wow, I never realized it was this deep an issue.  Now I know what World War III will likely be fought over.

On 4/10/11, dsimcha <dsimcha@yahoo.com> wrote:
> == Quote from Andrei Alexandrescu (SeeWebsiteForEmail@erdani.org)'s
>> Just googled it now, it's quite a story. Found among other things a
>> Wikipedia page dedicated entirely to the topic!
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma
>> Above all, it's your article, and one great thing about that is you get
>> to decide everything about it. A great feeling!
>> Andrei
>
> Wow, I never realized it was this deep an issue.  Now I know what World War
> III
> will likely be fought over.
>

This will likely be the very cause of World War III: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toilet_paper_orientation

Btw, excellent article. ^^

Am 10.04.2011 04:27, schrieb dsimcha:
> On 4/9/2011 10:22 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
>> On 04/09/2011 08:31 PM, dsimcha wrote:
>>> On 4/9/2011 7:56 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
>>>> I think the article's title is missing a comma btw.
>>>>
>>>> Andrei
>>>
>>> Where?
>>
>> Where could it ever be? After "parallelism".
>>
>> Andrei
> 
> Actually, I specifically remember learning about this grammar rule in middle school.  When listing stuff, the comma before the "and" is optional.  Putting it and not putting it are both correct.

Having both "and" and the comma seems redundant to me.

But I'm German and we don't have a comma before and ("und") in lists* so maybe I'm just not used to it.

Cheers,
- Daniel

* an Exception is when a subordinate clause ends before the "and", like in "I know programming languages like C, D, which kicks ass, and Java"

Am 10.04.2011 05:05, schrieb Andrej Mitrovic:
> On 4/10/11, dsimcha <dsimcha@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> == Quote from Andrei Alexandrescu (SeeWebsiteForEmail@erdani.org)'s
>>> Just googled it now, it's quite a story. Found among other things a
>>> Wikipedia page dedicated entirely to the topic!
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma
>>> Above all, it's your article, and one great thing about that is you get
>>> to decide everything about it. A great feeling!
>>> Andrei
>>
>> Wow, I never realized it was this deep an issue.  Now I know what World War
>> III
>> will likely be fought over.
>>
> 
> This will likely be the very cause of World War III: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toilet_paper_orientation

WTF is that article (and it's massive list of references) supposed to be
a joke?
(And how can people use the under orientation? ;))

== Quote from Daniel Gibson (metalcaedes@gmail.com)'s article
> Am 10.04.2011 05:05, schrieb Andrej Mitrovic:
> > On 4/10/11, dsimcha <dsimcha@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> == Quote from Andrei Alexandrescu (SeeWebsiteForEmail@erdani.org)'s
> >>> Just googled it now, it's quite a story. Found among other things a
> >>> Wikipedia page dedicated entirely to the topic!
> >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma
> >>> Above all, it's your article, and one great thing about that is you get
> >>> to decide everything about it. A great feeling!
> >>> Andrei
> >>
> >> Wow, I never realized it was this deep an issue.  Now I know what World War
> >> III
> >> will likely be fought over.
> >>
> >
> > This will likely be the very cause of World War III: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toilet_paper_orientation
> WTF is that article (and it's massive list of references) supposed to be
> a joke?
> (And how can people use the under orientation? ;))

I prefer it however it happens to be facing when it comes out of the package. However it comes out, that's what Nature intended.  I can't believe these despicable excuses for human beings that would intentionally disregard Nature's intention and flip the thing around.

> Am 10.04.2011 04:27, schrieb dsimcha:
> > On 4/9/2011 10:22 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
> >> On 04/09/2011 08:31 PM, dsimcha wrote:
> >>> On 4/9/2011 7:56 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
> >>>> I think the article's title is missing a comma btw.
> >>>> 
> >>>> Andrei
> >>> 
> >>> Where?
> >> 
> >> Where could it ever be? After "parallelism".
> >> 
> >> Andrei
> > 
> > Actually, I specifically remember learning about this grammar rule in middle school.  When listing stuff, the comma before the "and" is optional.  Putting it and not putting it are both correct.
> 
> Having both "and" and the comma seems redundant to me.
> 
> But I'm German and we don't have a comma before and ("und") in lists* so maybe I'm just not used to it.
> 
> Cheers,
> - Daniel
> 
> * an Exception is when a subordinate clause ends before the "and", like in "I know programming languages like C, D, which kicks ass, and Java"

I'm sure that the wikipedia article goes into a fair bit of detail on it, but there are cases where the lack of the comma leads to ambiguity. I believe that the current recommendation is to always put the comma in, but it's bound to depend on who you talk to - even among English teachers.

- Jonathan M Davis

Am 10.04.2011 06:04, schrieb Jonathan M Davis:
>> Am 10.04.2011 04:27, schrieb dsimcha:
>>> On 4/9/2011 10:22 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
>>>> On 04/09/2011 08:31 PM, dsimcha wrote:
>>>>> On 4/9/2011 7:56 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
>>>>>> I think the article's title is missing a comma btw.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Andrei
>>>>>
>>>>> Where?
>>>>
>>>> Where could it ever be? After "parallelism".
>>>>
>>>> Andrei
>>>
>>> Actually, I specifically remember learning about this grammar rule in middle school.  When listing stuff, the comma before the "and" is optional.  Putting it and not putting it are both correct.
>>
>> Having both "and" and the comma seems redundant to me.
>>
>> But I'm German and we don't have a comma before and ("und") in lists* so maybe I'm just not used to it.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> - Daniel
>>
>> * an Exception is when a subordinate clause ends before the "and", like in "I know programming languages like C, D, which kicks ass, and Java"
> 
> I'm sure that the wikipedia article goes into a fair bit of detail on it, but there are cases where the lack of the comma leads to ambiguity. I believe that the current recommendation is to always put the comma in, but it's bound to depend on who you talk to - even among English teachers.
> 
> - Jonathan M Davis

You can always have ambiguities, e.g.
"I know programming languages like C, D, my favorite, Java and Haskell"
- does "my favorite" belong to the list or does it describe D? And
shouldn't there be two commas after "favorite" (for me this kind of
feels like a missing closing bracket)?

Or, a slightly altered version of a wikipedia example:
"Among those interviewed were his three ex-wives, Kris Kristofferson,
Horst Hacker and Robert Duvall." - are Kris, Horst and Robert his
ex-wives (same problem like in the original wikipedia example)?
Alternative version:
"Among those interviewed were his three ex-wives, Kris Kristofferson,
Horst Hacker, and Robert Duvall." - not better at all: It's not clear
whether "Kris Kristofferson, Horst Hacker, and Robert Duvall" is a list
of ex-wives (it's a list, so we put a comma before the and etc) or if
"his three ex-wives, Kris Kristofferson, Horst Hacker, and Robert
Duvall." is a list of six people.
So I think a comma before "and" doesn't help very much in solving
ambiguities.

Cheers,
- Daniel

On Sat, 2011-04-09 at 21:37 -0500, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: [ . . . ]
> I see. I go by "Bugs in Writing" (awesome book) and Strunk/White. They both recommend the comma, no ifs and buts (hard for me to get used to because in Romanian that comma is _never_ correct).

The "bibles" in this situation are "The Oxford Style Manual" and "The Chicago Manual of Style", everything else is mere commentary. :-)

Romanian is not English, rules do not transfer ;-)

> Just googled it now, it's quite a story. Found among other things a Wikipedia page dedicated entirely to the topic! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma

Since when has the "Oxford Comma" been known as the "Harvard Comma". Never.  Pah.

> Above all, it's your article, and one great thing about that is you get to decide everything about it. A great feeling!

Except when the sub-editors impose the publisher's choices.  Of course they always work to either "The Oxford Style Manual" or "The Chicago Manual of Style", so the moral is to buy one of them and work to it.

http://www.suite101.com/content/the-chicago-manual-of-style-vs-the-oxford-style-manual-a267432

Also "The Oxford Style Manual" is smaller and cheaper as well as being better.  And of course English, whereas "The Chicago Manual of Style" is just American English.

I shall now duck to avoid the spamming that this troll will invoke. :-)

-- 
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