On Thursday, 3 October 2019 at 13:02:41 UTC, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:
> On Thursday, 3 October 2019 at 12:53:58 UTC, Chris wrote:
>> For example, is there a tool to streamline D integration into Android and iOS (cf. Nim)?
>
> yes, it already just works on android command line and gui coming very soon

Care to post the link?

On Thursday, 3 October 2019 at 12:53:58 UTC, Chris wrote:
> On Thursday, 3 October 2019 at 11:59:08 UTC, mipri wrote:
>>
>> The rhetorical value of hyperbolic language like this is that it's so
>> rare in these forums. Everyone's just so peppy and ra-ra about D all
>> the time that it's very startling to see any dissent.

Let's go through this piece by piece:

  The rhetorical value of hyperbolic language like this

I'm guessing this what you replied to.

  is that it's so rare in these forums.

Do you agree with that?

  Everyone's just so peppy and ra-ra about D all the time

Do you think anyone would perceive the forums this way?

  it's very startling to see any dissent.

Did you think anyone would be startled by your remarks?

To put it plainly, the forums are characterized by a constant drone of
hyperbolic complaints about D and even a week of exposure is enough
time to start tuning it out automatically. I don't read "D has an
atrocious ecosystem" and think, oh no, someone had better do something
about that! Nor do I feel that I should get in front of this unjust
attack on D's honor. What I think is, "if I ask this person what he
even means by that, is he even going to tell me?"

You didn't, but I reckon it's option #1 after all:

> To be clear, dub is NOT "D's ecosystem", it's a tiny part of it, and most issues are not related to dub but to broken packages due to compiler upgrades and other toolchains. For example, is there a tool to streamline D integration into Android and iOS (cf. Nim)? Where are the plugins for the major IDEs? D doesn't care, but it sure won't scale this way.

On Thursday, 3 October 2019 at 13:28:15 UTC, Chris wrote:
> Care to post the link?

https://github.com/ldc-developers/ldc/releases/tag/v1.18.0-beta2

me and another person are working on the ios and android gui stuff in the background.

On Thursday, 3 October 2019 at 13:35:09 UTC, mipri wrote:
>
> Let's go through this piece by piece:
>
>   The rhetorical value of hyperbolic language like this
>
> I'm guessing this what you replied to.
>
>   is that it's so rare in these forums.
>
> Do you agree with that?
>
>   Everyone's just so peppy and ra-ra about D all the time
>
> Do you think anyone would perceive the forums this way?
>
>   it's very startling to see any dissent.
>
> Did you think anyone would be startled by your remarks?
>
> To put it plainly, the forums are characterized by a constant drone of
> hyperbolic complaints about D and even a week of exposure is enough
> time to start tuning it out automatically. I don't read "D has an
> atrocious ecosystem" and think, oh no, someone had better do something
> about that! Nor do I feel that I should get in front of this unjust
> attack on D's honor. What I think is, "if I ask this person what he
> even means by that, is he even going to tell me?"
>
> You didn't, but I reckon it's option #1 after all:

Er, I've raised some issues, as have others over the years. I don't know what your problem is. I'm not trying to shock or troll. But I think it's ok to talk about D on forum.dlang.org? Ain't it? And I'm learning interesting things and it's interesting to hear what other people (not the fanboys and those with a vested interest) say. True, I'm not a fan of how things have developed, but who cares?

If you wanna be sarcastic, try to be less obscure. That might help. Good look to you!

On Thursday, 3 October 2019 at 13:44:09 UTC, Chris wrote:
> If you wanna be sarcastic, try to be less obscure.

What you did was rhetorical pattern-matching.

if

  Chris says <bad things about D>
  Someone else <replies disapprovingly>

then deploy prepared comeback:

  "Aha! You D fanboys are at it again, attacking the messenger!"

Read what I say instead of lazily continuing your unproductive
bitch-fest into pseudo-conversation with me, and you'll catch
obvious sarcasm just fine.

> That might help. Good look to you!

On Thursday, 3 October 2019 at 13:47:57 UTC, mipri wrote:
> On Thursday, 3 October 2019 at 13:44:09 UTC, Chris wrote:
>> If you wanna be sarcastic, try to be less obscure.
>
> What you did was rhetorical pattern-matching.
>
> if
>
>   Chris says <bad things about D>
>   Someone else <replies disapprovingly>
>
> then deploy prepared comeback:
>
>   "Aha! You D fanboys are at it again, attacking the messenger!"
>
> Read what I say instead of lazily continuing your unproductive
> bitch-fest into pseudo-conversation with me, and you'll catch
> obvious sarcasm just fine.
>
>> That might help. Good look to you!

You're a charming chap indeed! Your social skills are amazing. If you don't like the conversation, just ignore it, that's what most people would do. I've quite enjoyed the chat with some of the posters here. And I've learned a lot too. Actually, Nim looks promising.

On Thursday, 3 October 2019 at 13:47:57 UTC, mipri wrote:
> Read what I say instead of lazily continuing your unproductive
> bitch-fest into pseudo-conversation with me, and you'll catch
> obvious sarcasm just fine.

You went ad-hominem. That has been a plague of these forums for years. Unfortunately there is no real forum moderation policy in place, and frankly key developers have had a tendency to go down this road quite frequently, but moving from something technical to something personal is not in the spirit of engineering, and should be avoided, no matter how much you dislike the presented positions. Most people in this thread have presented reasonable positions.

But D is moving slowly in the critical area of memory management, which really is a prerequisite for being a real alternative for many developers. On the other hand, D is moving, so that is a good thing, but I really hope that the D community don't scare off people with the theoretical knowledge to make it work. Without those people there is a very slim chance of getting it right.

Other languages are moving to, in this thread Nim has been highlighted, so comparing Nim's situation to D's situation ought to be on-topic for this thread. I don't really understand why you want Chris to sugar-coat his views. Again, I really hope that the D community don't scare off people with the theoretical knowledge to design memory management solutions that works well.

On Thursday, 3 October 2019 at 16:57:13 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote:
> On Thursday, 3 October 2019 at 13:47:57 UTC, mipri wrote:
>> Read what I say instead of lazily continuing your unproductive
>> bitch-fest into pseudo-conversation with me, and you'll catch
>> obvious sarcasm just fine.
>
> You went ad-hominem.

Suppose a neighbor deliberately poisons your dog. How should you
respond? By poisoning the neighbor's dog? What if you're morally
opposed to poisoning animals in general? What if the neighbor doesn't
have a dog?

Offenses can't always be replied to in kind. You shouldn't be so alert
for specific forms of offense that seeing them blinds you to earlier
interactions.

For example, even if I wanted to hold a grudge over this rude post of
yours, such that I'd wait for an opportunity to jump in *after*
you've stopped arguing with someone to say "woah! Let's all settle
down!", followed by mischaracterizations of your behavior in the
argument, I just wouldn't remember to do it. And I'm morally opposed
to posts such as yours, or to holding petty grudges.

> I don't really understand
> why you want Chris to sugar-coat his views.

This is the timeline:

Chris expresses a view that D has an atrocious ecosystem, that you
can't just download and use D code like you can in Python and Java,
etc.

I then complain mildly and indirectly about the hyperbolic language,
but mainly: I ask for details on what's so bad about the ecosystem,
and write a lot about potential badnesses that Chris could've meant.
You probably don't think this is "asking for sugarcoating" yet, right?

Chris then sneers that I am saying that D is "the best language in the
world" and that I am attacking him as a heretic, which is extra
special annoying as this is blatantly a prepared reply to "someone
complaining about his D bashing" rather than a reply to what I
actually complained about. Interpersonally, this is interrupting
someone and smugly rebutting what you think they're trying to
say--while being wrong about what they mean to say, while
characterizing them as a stupid fanboy. Nothing ad hominen here, I
guess?

There's then some back and forth about my sarcasm, because Chris
offered nothing else to talk about, and I took the bait as I am doing
now.

> Again, I really
> hope that the D community don't scare off people with the
> theoretical knowledge to design memory management solutions
> that works well.

Just post about other stuff. Bump other threads. Talk about Nim in the
Nim thread instead of about arguments that you didn't pay a lot of
attention to. Or if you want to offer some general appeals like your
hopes for the D community, do that, and just that. You don't really
care the timeline above, right? So why make some non-ad-hominen
remarks suggestions that read a bit like "we really need a moderator
in here to handle hotheads that insult people so obviously that I
notice it after they fail to get someone else to sugarcoat their
views"? What part of that didn't you think wouldn't lead to more
posts about the thing you're wanting to go away?

I've been repeatedly insulted for asking for technical details behind
a vacuous and meaningless complaint about D. Because I was interested
in them. Because I'm interested in improvements to the thing I saw
complained about. I don't feel bad about some mild words like "lazy",
"unproductive", or "bitch-fest". What I've learned is to not bother
asking for details about vacuous complaints in here. People can show
they care about their own stated positions by being at least a little
technical or specific at the outset.

On Thursday, 3 October 2019 at 17:50:09 UTC, mipri wrote:
> On Thursday, 3 October 2019 at 16:57:13 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote:
>> [...]
>
> Suppose a neighbor deliberately poisons your dog. How should you
> respond? By poisoning the neighbor's dog? What if you're morally
> opposed to poisoning animals in general? What if the neighbor doesn't
> have a dog?
>
> Offenses can't always be replied to in kind. You shouldn't be so alert
> for specific forms of offense that seeing them blinds you to earlier
> interactions.
>
> For example, even if I wanted to hold a grudge over this rude post of
> yours, such that I'd wait for an opportunity to jump in *after*
> you've stopped arguing with someone to say "woah! Let's all settle
> down!", followed by mischaracterizations of your behavior in the
> argument, I just wouldn't remember to do it. And I'm morally opposed
> to posts such as yours, or to holding petty grudges.
>
>> [...]
>
> This is the timeline:
>
> Chris expresses a view that D has an atrocious ecosystem, that you
> can't just download and use D code like you can in Python and Java,
> etc.
>
> I then complain mildly and indirectly about the hyperbolic language,
> but mainly: I ask for details on what's so bad about the ecosystem,
> and write a lot about potential badnesses that Chris could've meant.
> You probably don't think this is "asking for sugarcoating" yet, right?
>
> Chris then sneers that I am saying that D is "the best language in the
> world" and that I am attacking him as a heretic, which is extra
> special annoying as this is blatantly a prepared reply to "someone
> complaining about his D bashing" rather than a reply to what I
> actually complained about. Interpersonally, this is interrupting
> someone and smugly rebutting what you think they're trying to
> say--while being wrong about what they mean to say, while
> characterizing them as a stupid fanboy. Nothing ad hominen here, I
> guess?
>
> There's then some back and forth about my sarcasm, because Chris
> offered nothing else to talk about, and I took the bait as I am doing
> now.
>
>> [...]
>
> Just post about other stuff. Bump other threads. Talk about Nim in the
> Nim thread instead of about arguments that you didn't pay a lot of
> attention to. Or if you want to offer some general appeals like your
> hopes for the D community, do that, and just that. You don't really
> care the timeline above, right? So why make some non-ad-hominen
> remarks suggestions that read a bit like "we really need a moderator
> in here to handle hotheads that insult people so obviously that I
> notice it after they fail to get someone else to sugarcoat their
> views"? What part of that didn't you think wouldn't lead to more
> posts about the thing you're wanting to go away?
>
> I've been repeatedly insulted for asking for technical details behind
> a vacuous and meaningless complaint about D. Because I was interested
> in them. Because I'm interested in improvements to the thing I saw
> complained about. I don't feel bad about some mild words like "lazy",
> "unproductive", or "bitch-fest". What I've learned is to not bother
> asking for details about vacuous complaints in here. People can show
> they care about their own stated positions by being at least a little
> technical or specific at the outset.

On Thursday, 3 October 2019 at 17:50:09 UTC, mipri wrote:

You do realize that it was you who hijacked this thread about Nim and tried to turn it into a flamewar with ad hominems galore. As for the details, well, anyone who has been on this forum for a while (as most posters here have) knows the details, and honestly, I won't repeat them every time a random poster says "If you don't provide details, I won't take you seriously." Everybody remembers the discussions and issues regarding: ecosystem / tooling, autodecode, GC, ARM support and loads of other stuff that pops up regularly. If you want the details put the aforementioned terms in the forum search engine. Also, if you find Ola's reply "offensive", seriously, I don't know what to say. Again, I wish you good luck.

On Thursday, 3 October 2019 at 13:39:51 UTC, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:
> On Thursday, 3 October 2019 at 13:28:15 UTC, Chris wrote:
>> Care to post the link?
>
> https://github.com/ldc-developers/ldc/releases/tag/v1.18.0-beta2
>
> me and another person are working on the ios and android gui stuff in the background.

Thanks. Good on you. How will it work once it's finished? How hard would it be to integrate it into an Android Studio / Xcode project / toolchain, e.g. could I add it as a dependency or would I have to compile it and package it as an additional lib? Are there any plans for auto generated bridges, e.g. JNI calling rt_init() or something?