On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 19:16:00 UTC, Bubbasaur wrote:
> I take the TIOBE as good PR, because it always appearing on Reddit and people talk about for good or worst.

Whenever D is making a marketing push you get newbies in the forums complaining about lacking libraries, lacking IDE, lacking tooling. Then they leave, most likely with a bad impression, because they had higher expectations.

If people believe that D is as popular as Swift, which is the current TIOBE ranking, they also expect the eco system of Swift. Which D cannot deliver.

Yes, I am pessimistic when it comes to FUD, it leads to resentment.

What the D community needs is users with realistic expectations and goals.

On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 19:28:29 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote:
> On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 19:16:00 UTC, Bubbasaur wrote:
>> I take the TIOBE as good PR, because it always appearing on Reddit and people talk about for good or worst.
>
> Whenever D is making a marketing push you get newbies in the forums complaining about lacking libraries, lacking IDE, lacking tooling. Then they leave, most likely with a bad impression, because they had higher expectations.
>
> If people believe that D is as popular as Swift, which is the current TIOBE ranking, they also expect the eco system of Swift. Which D cannot deliver.
>
> Yes, I am pessimistic when it comes to FUD, it leads to resentment.
>
> What the D community needs is users with realistic expectations and goals.

None of those things happen without users, and being high on tiobe gets users.
The D community is stretched incredibly thin already.

On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 19:28:29 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote:
> ...
> Whenever D is making a marketing push you get newbies in the forums complaining about lacking libraries, lacking IDE, lacking tooling. Then they leave, most likely with a bad impression, because they had higher expectations.

Yes they leave and go to another language with a lot of tools but the new language design sucks or it's slow to developing or have restrictions whatever.

> If people believe that D is as popular as Swift, which is the current TIOBE ranking, they also expect the eco system of Swift. Which D cannot deliver.

Couldn't some of those "new" people see a great potential on D and write new tools that is lacking right now?

Sorry but this is not like be realistic you're being too much pessimistic. Let the river take it's course. :)

Bubba.

On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 19:48:48 UTC, Bubbasaur wrote:
> Yes they leave and go to another language with a lot of tools but the new language design sucks or it's slow to developing or have restrictions whatever.

It is possible to position a language as a focused niche alternative, people like to bet on the underdog. That's what attracted me to D 10 years ago. Walter was this courageous geek that singlehandedly challenged the big and bloated C++. I realized D was not finished, but had a favourable impression because my initial expectations were low.

That meant I had low resistance to downloading D again a few years later, and so on. So, even if people are leaving, it is important that they leave without resentment, after all if they were willing to give D a spin once, they might be willing to spin it up a few more times later on. Feel good.


> Couldn't some of those "new" people see a great potential on D and write new tools that is lacking right now?

They could, but are they likely to? The most likely group to do system level programming are system level programmers, so realistic articles, presentations and talks that make D look technically interesting are more likely to win them over.

As the "most voted topics" on StackOverflow shows, D has a perceived credibility problem. Being honest and realistic is the best way to address that, IMO.

Perpetrating the idea that D is as big as Swift just hurts D's credibility.

On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 20:41:59 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote:
> It is possible to position a language as a focused niche alternative, people like to bet on the underdog. That's what attracted me to D 10 years ago. Walter was this courageous geek that singlehandedly challenged the big and bloated C++. I realized D was not finished, but had a favourable impression because my initial expectations were low.
>[...]

Alright, you win, I'm going to buy some bottles of whisky and play blues all night to atone for the dreary thought of hords of users coming to see what is done here. It's not as if we were responsible for the TIOBE ranking, but we sure are responsible for giving them hope in a new, how hopelessly uncomplete language that we love.  They'll harass the developers with new uncovered issues and criticate their choices. They'll fill the General section of the forum with questions meant for Learn. They'll talk about C++ like never before and maybe even about Rust or Go.  The most clement ones will leave but not without a dreadful blog post pointing at D's defects. The real problem will be with the other ones, those who will decide to stay. Some by innocent cruelty, others by sheer curiosity. They'll ask about how they can help just to see our aimless messages unable to guide them to do anything useful.

You're right, gaining unwanted attention really is a nightmare.

Oh, quick, a drink, I think I hear the first of them. They're coming...

D's DoomsDay.

On Wednesday, 3 February 2016 at 23:08:19 UTC, cym13 wrote:
> defects. The real problem will be with the other ones, those who will decide to stay. Some by innocent cruelty, others by sheer curiosity.

Actually, yes. I do think getting aiming for more demanding users at this point is a problem as I want to see breaking changes implemented.

I don't think having a large user base of programmers is an advantage, as that will lead to protests against changes and improvements that could make D a real contender.