On Monday, 15 May 2023 at 12:45:03 UTC, claptrap wrote:
> On Monday, 15 May 2023 at 12:19:26 UTC, ag0aep6g wrote:
[...]
>> So it's kinda like the "Where do you see yourself in five years?" question. But I'm sure IVY is much more sophisticated ;)
>
> LOL it went from "hot air" to "much more sophisticated" very quickly.

Yeah, hype about nothing is just hot air. Hype about something is possibly not just hot air. I think that's a reasonable stance.

Also, don't forgot about the winky smiley. That winky smiley is important.

On Monday, 15 May 2023 at 12:19:26 UTC, ag0aep6g wrote:

>
> So it's kinda like the "Where do you see yourself in five years?" question.

It's deeper than that. And that's why I didn't want to say anything about the details of it in a forum post. All of us had the wrong first impression when we started the program. It takes a bit of self-reflection to discover your IVY statement. And I use "discover" intentionally. It's not a matter of pondering where you see yourself in the future. It's a process of understanding what motivates you on the path you're following *now*.

On Monday, 15 May 2023 at 15:40:29 UTC, Mike Parker wrote:
> On Monday, 15 May 2023 at 12:19:26 UTC, ag0aep6g wrote:
>
>>
>> So it's kinda like the "Where do you see yourself in five years?" question.
>
> It's deeper than that. And that's why I didn't want to say anything about the details of it in a forum post. All of us had the wrong first impression when we started the program. It takes a bit of self-reflection to discover your IVY statement. And I use "discover" intentionally. It's not a matter of pondering where you see yourself in the future. It's a process of understanding what motivates you on the path you're following *now*.

An alternative perspective, that could be argued, is that the concept of an 'individual self' is more like a disease, and that the way out of it, is to keep as busy as we can thinking of things and of other people, or preoccupied with a constructive passion of some kind.

In this view, the self does not matter. It's just tedious egotism.

On Monday, 15 May 2023 at 14:42:36 UTC, ag0aep6g wrote:
>
> ...
> Yeah, hype about nothing is just hot air. Hype about something is possibly not just hot air. I think that's a reasonable stance.
>
> Also, don't forgot about the winky smiley. That winky smiley is important.

Don't be fooled.

The self is just one of many 'weird entities' that arise from the activity of the mind.

These 'entities' owe there existence solely to the activity of the mind.

If your mind conceives it, it exists only in your mind.

On 5/15/23 15:55, WilliamJames wrote:

Earlier you said:

> If your mind conceives it, it exists only in your mind.

And everything exists in my mind anyway.[1]

> An alternative perspective, that could be argued, is that the concept of
> an 'individual self' is more like a disease, and that the way out of it,
> is to keep as busy as we can thinking of things and of other people, or
> preoccupied with a constructive passion of some kind.

Since I make everything, that's exactly what I am doing all the time anyway.

> In this view, the self does not matter. It's just tedious egotism.

However, self is the only entity that produces motivation and motivation gets things done. That's how I related to IVY.

I've always found motivation a magical thing: I never know when it comes and how. There has been times where I was very motivated, taking tasks and running with them. Other times, I am not motivated at all. I know and research confirms you can't buy motivation, you can't ask someone to be motivated, etc.

I took IVY to be an attempt at explaining where motivation comes from. It defines the concept of "ideal vision of yourself". It argues that every person has a vision of themselves. When their activities align with that vision, they are motivated and things happen.

A big challenge is discovering that vision of one's self. The same thing happens with the organization: It has a vision as well and it is difficult to define. And then there are the "customers". They have a vision as well.

Like a Venn diagram, the three visions intersect. There are different outcomes expected at each intersecting area. The best place is at the center where all three visions are aligned. Then we have happy and successful people, organization, and customers.

That's what I understood of IVY.

And that ties into goals and tasks. That's how IVY is supposed to help with organizations. I am confident we will take advantage of IVY.

Ali

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism

On Tuesday, 16 May 2023 at 04:35:51 UTC, Ali Çehreli wrote:
> On 5/15/23 15:55, WilliamJames wrote:
>
> Earlier you said:
>
> > If your mind conceives it, it exists only in your mind.
>
> And everything exists in my mind anyway.[1]
>

Some things exist in the mind, and some things are a product of the mind.

There is a difference.

The fundamental principles of computing, programming, and pretty much anything based on science, can 'exist' in the mind, in that, they've entered our stream of consciousness somehow (most likely because our biological 'self' already knows these principles, and occassionaly they enter our own stream of consciousness through some mysterious way, and we simply become aware of them. You'd be amazed at the knowledge our biological self has, and how little of it enters our stream of consciousness.

Then there are things that are the product of the mind. That is where the 'self' comes from. It's arises out of the activity of the mind (so it's a product of that activity, not something intrinsic in itself). You can make the self disappear through the activity of your mind also ;-)

> > An alternative perspective, that could be argued, is that the
> concept of
> > an 'individual self' is more like a disease, and that the way
> out of it,
> > is to keep as busy as we can thinking of things and of other
> people, or
> > preoccupied with a constructive passion of some kind.
>
> Since I make everything, that's exactly what I am doing all the time anyway.
>

You're lucky. Most people are blindless zombies, like those stuck in the matrix.

That's not necessarily a bad thing by the way. But in some circumstance, it' not ideal, as history tells us.

> > In this view, the self does not matter. It's just tedious
> egotism.
>
> However, self is the only entity that produces motivation and motivation gets things done. That's how I related to IVY.
>
> I've always found motivation a magical thing: I never know when it comes and how. There has been times where I was very motivated, taking tasks and running with them. Other times, I am not motivated at all. I know and research confirms you can't buy motivation, you can't ask someone to be motivated, etc.
> I took IVY to be an attempt at explaining where motivation comes from. It defines the concept of "ideal vision of yourself". It argues that every person has a vision of themselves. When their activities align with that vision, they are motivated and things happen.

Again, the self is a well studied concept. But it remains a polysemous concept, and seems to be more an area for philosophy than psychology - much like the concept of consciousness. As such, IVY could well backfire in the D community, since not everyone agrees that there is a self, or that it should be as important in ones daily life as some want you to believe. You might be more free, for example, if you rid yourself of the concept of self. But I divert...

> A big challenge is discovering that vision of one's self. The same thing happens with the organization: It has a vision as well and it is difficult to define. And then there are the "customers". They have a vision as well.

'vision' is the right word here ;-)

> Like a Venn diagram, the three visions intersect. There are different outcomes expected at each intersecting area. The best place is at the center where all three visions are aligned. Then we have happy and successful people, organization, and customers.
>
> That's what I understood of IVY.
> And that ties into goals and tasks. That's how IVY is supposed to help with organizations. I am confident we will take advantage of IVY.
>

fallibilism : the principle that propositions concerning empirical knowledge can be accepted even though they cannot be proved with certainty.

Really, I just want an announcement for when D3 will arrive, and whether it will have the features I want. I don't much care about whether people are developing a better vision of themselves ;-)

On Tuesday, 16 May 2023 at 04:35:51 UTC, Ali Çehreli wrote:
>
> ...
> However, self is the only entity that produces motivation and motivation gets things done. That's how I related to IVY.
>

The motivations of the delusional self can often lead to suffering.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2016.00124/full

On Tuesday, 16 May 2023 at 05:46:23 UTC, WilliamJames wrote:
 As
> such, IVY could well backfire in the D community, since not everyone agrees that there is a self, or that it should be as important in ones daily life as some want you to believe

And the award for the whackiest criticism of D management goes to .....