On 14 December 2013 01:35, Szymon Gatner <noemail@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Friday, 13 December 2013 at 15:28:41 UTC, Manu wrote:
>
>> On 14 December 2013 01:09, Szymon Gatner <noemail@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>  On Friday, 13 December 2013 at 14:50:18 UTC, Manu wrote:
>>>
>>>  On 13 December 2013 23:53, Szymon Gatner <noemail@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  On Friday, 13 December 2013 at 13:06:16 UTC, Rikki Cattermole wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  On Friday, 13 December 2013 at 12:37:21 UTC, Szymon Gatner wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Hi, I am experienced C++ programmer, recently switched to indie
>>>>>> gamedev
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (1 title released commercially, another on the way). I am really
>>>>>>> interested
>>>>>>> in this for 2 reasons:
>>>>>>> 1) a chance to work with someone of your experience
>>>>>>> 2) as soon as it is possible (that would be D working on iOS) I would
>>>>>>> like to do a transition from C++ to D in our projects so new
>>>>>>> experience in
>>>>>>> D (and in the industry) is just perfect
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Please consider me!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  From the sounds of it, it'll be a community project so no worries,
>>>>>> just
>>>>>> join in.
>>>>>> Have a talk with the GDC compiler guys about helping with ARM support
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> getting on iOS. They could definitely use the help!
>>>>>> Although from my knowledge there probably will be issues with tool
>>>>>> chain
>>>>>> not verified by Apple.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Thing is, I feel nowhere near qualified to work on a compiler. And
>>>>> compiler is really just a beginning. Even with Xcode preparing iOS app
>>>>> that
>>>>> is written in C++ and not Objective-C is still far from easy.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  Really? Everything I've ever written on iOS was in full C++, with
>>>> just one
>>>> .m file to boot, and marshall the view and input events :)
>>>> I think doing the same with D would be equally trivial. A game doesn't
>>>> need
>>>> access to the full iOS UI library. Any OS service calls can be wrapped
>>>> in
>>>> C
>>>> functions in the marshalling .m file.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> That is exactly what I do too, all C++ + some .mm files. I rather meant
>>> debugging capabilities of Xcode (well now mych better in v5 but still
>>> crap
>>> compared to VC), code signing, provisions and a need to use command line
>>> instead of IDE for archiving etc. Tbh I am using CMake to keep my
>>> projects
>>> portable so that is a part of a problem but still ;)
>>>
>>>
>> Indeed, but I would just never try and debug the iOS build :)
>> I always debug the PC build, and then occasionally you need to fix a
>> straggling iOS specific issue... but they're typically few and far
>> between,
>> particularly if your tech has good portability to start with.
>>
>
> LOL so I am not the only one he does iOS programming more on Windows than on Mac.


Fuck, I'm yet to meet a programmer who does iOS programming on a Mac...
Many of my (professional) friends and colleagues even use Hackintoshes to
do their iOS dev!
I'd never give a cent to Apple and support their exclusive, proprietary,
walled-garden wanker's club if I can help it! ;)


> Btw I was very surprised to see that most (if not all) attendees of DConf had Mac Books. I hate mine with passion.
>

Me too! I was absolutely astonished! Sickened even!
It was 100 times worse when I was standing on that bloody stage looking at
100 little glowing apple logo's on the backs of everyone's screens, twice!
I did manage to resist the urge for public (and filmed) comment, it took
every bit of restraint I had though :P

That said, I'm not so exclusive to not support their platform in my software. And they do have a good appstore, which is viable for indy's.

On 14 December 2013 01:39, Jacob Carlborg <doob@me.com> wrote:

> On 2013-12-13 15:50, Manu wrote:
>
>  Really? Everything I've ever written on iOS was in full C++, with just
>> one .m file to boot, and marshall the view and input events :)
>> I think doing the same with D would be equally trivial. A game doesn't
>> need access to the full iOS UI library. Any OS service calls can be
>> wrapped in C functions in the marshalling .m file.
>>
>
> No need for an Objective-C file. The Objective-C methods can be accessed through the C functions available in the Objective-C runtime from D. Although, as been mentioned many times before, that's verbose and cumbersome. Both are ugly solutions, don't know which is the least ugly.


Maybe one day we'll get extern(Obj-C), that'll be an exciting day :)

On 13/12/13 17:48, Manu wrote:
> Fuck, I'm yet to meet a programmer who does iOS programming on a Mac... Many of
> my (professional) friends and colleagues even use Hackintoshes to do their iOS dev!
> I'd never give a cent to Apple and support their exclusive, proprietary,
> walled-garden wanker's club if I can help it! ;)

Do you mind if I frame this and put it on my wall? :-)

On 14 December 2013 02:55, Joseph Rushton Wakeling < joseph.wakeling@webdrake.net> wrote:

> On 13/12/13 17:48, Manu wrote:
>
>> Fuck, I'm yet to meet a programmer who does iOS programming on a Mac...
>> Many of
>> my (professional) friends and colleagues even use Hackintoshes to do
>> their iOS dev!
>> I'd never give a cent to Apple and support their exclusive, proprietary,
>> walled-garden wanker's club if I can help it! ;)
>>
>
> Do you mind if I frame this and put it on my wall? :-)
>

Haha, go for it!
Fortunately the Apple fanaticism has mellowed out in recent years. There
was a time not too long ago where I'd have been mauled in the streets by
a fanboy lynch mob of for making claims like that...

I'd say there's a massive bias in games though since most gamedevs are windows users. Windows is the only real PC based market for games, and all the dev-tools for consoles are windows based too, so I guess it stands to reason that you don't meet too many gamedev's with an insatiable lust for Apple products.

On Friday, 13 December 2013 at 17:11:23 UTC, Manu wrote:
> I'd say there's a massive bias in games though since most gamedevs are
> windows users. Windows is the only real PC based market for games, and all
> the dev-tools for consoles are windows based too, so I guess it stands to
> reason that you don't meet too many gamedev's with an insatiable lust for
> Apple products.

I hope so much for Valve success here, despite all the DRM crap they use :) This industry could have used some small cross-platform earthquake :P

On 14 December 2013 03:22, Dicebot <public@dicebot.lv> wrote:

> On Friday, 13 December 2013 at 17:11:23 UTC, Manu wrote:
>
>> I'd say there's a massive bias in games though since most gamedevs are windows users. Windows is the only real PC based market for games, and all the dev-tools for consoles are windows based too, so I guess it stands to reason that you don't meet too many gamedev's with an insatiable lust for Apple products.
>>
>
> I hope so much for Valve success here, despite all the DRM crap they use :) This industry could have used some small cross-platform earthquake :P
>

Me too. I think Steam is the most exciting platform to emerge in many years. I hope they do well.

On Friday, 13 December 2013 at 03:13:16 UTC, Manu wrote:
> On 13 December 2013 04:52, John Colvin
>>
>> Delay between people isn't really the problem, it's delay in hearing
>> yourself that's the killer. Although 22ms is the normally quoted limit for
>> noticing the latency, it actually depends on frequency. Even regardless of
>> frequency, i typically find that anything less than 64ms is ok, less than
>> 128ms is just about bearable and anything more is a serious problem for
>> recording a tight-sounding performance.
>>
>
> […]
>
> Man, my day job works in quantities of 16ms (1 frame), and I have spent
> many hours resolving inter-frame synchronisation issues (16ms out of
> synch). Maybe I'm just hyper-sensitive, but 64ms is extremely noticeable to
> me. 128ms is like an eternity!
> Consider, 16th notes at 120bpm (not unusual in metal, I assure you), are
> only 125ms apart, that more than an entire note out.
> Around 4ms is what professional recording setups aim for.

Yep, I'd be quite surprised if a professional musician (at least one playing a somewhat percussive instrument) wouldn't notice a 20ms delay, given how obvious small delays are for me when e.g. playing a VST instrument when the audio interface buffer size is too large or a plugin is slowing down the whole system due to delay compensation in the host software. In digital (live) pro audio, latencies in the low single-digit microseconds are usually considered acceptable, with more it depends on the circumstances.

Of course, the threshold for being able to play in sync in relation to other musicians is quite a bit higher, and what I've seen some singers do on big opera stages (think e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bregenzer_Festspiele) is nothing short of amazing.

David

Am Fri, 13 Dec 2013 00:48:38 +1000
schrieb Manu <turkeyman@gmail.com>:

> Sure. But you can still work on those things while playing the game, those aspects of your performance just won't be accurately recorded or scored. My drums (from 'band hero', typically considered the best ones they ever made) do report impact sensitivity, although it's not used by the game for some reason.
> 
> For me, I never played drums, and there's a lot of motor skills required to
> tightly synchronise all those limbs that are perfectly applicable skills I
> developed while playing those games.
> I was so sloppy synchronising hands and feet at first, and my left hand was
> kinda gump, would never keep up with my right hand in rolls, and when i
> tried to synchronise fast double kicks with hand rolls... keeping all those
> motions tight is stuff I wouldn't have if I didn't play those games.

Hey, I keep drumming on everything I find. Tables, stools and
especially my cheap keyboard. That keyboard has a certain
crunch to it. I'm worried about my notebook though. I hope the
hard disk can handle the shocks. :) I just can't keep calm to a
good rock song.
But whenever a real drummer sees me drumming on a bar table,
they gotta show me that there is more to it and I wonder how
one can ever learn to coordinate two hands and the feet to play
different rhythms and above that hit the correct drum.

-- 
Marco

On 2013-12-13 21:03, Marco Leise wrote:

> Hey, I keep drumming on everything I find. Tables, stools and
> especially my cheap keyboard. That keyboard has a certain
> crunch to it. I'm worried about my notebook though. I hope the
> hard disk can handle the shocks. :) I just can't keep calm to a
> good rock song.
> But whenever a real drummer sees me drumming on a bar table,
> they gotta show me that there is more to it and I wonder how
> one can ever learn to coordinate two hands and the feet to play
> different rhythms and above that hit the correct drum.

I've been drumming so much on my desk that the finish (or what it's called) has been wear done.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg

On 2013-12-13 17:49, Manu wrote:

> Maybe one day we'll get extern(Obj-C), that'll be an exciting day :)

I couldn't agree more :)

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg