On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 12:39:49 UTC, Dicebot wrote:
> On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 09:06:00 UTC, Don wrote:
>> Mono-D and Eclipse DDT both have major problems with long pauses while typing (eg 15 seconds unresponsive) and crashes. Both of them even have "modules of death" where just viewing the file will cause a crash. If you're unlucky enough to get one of those open in your default workspace file, the IDE will crash at startup...
>
> https://github.com/aBothe/Mono-D/issues?state=open ;)
>
> It does sound like a serious problem but I can hardly expect IDE maintainers to fix such stuff without having a bug reports.

Guys, this wasn't even part of the talk. The point I made in the talk is: at the moment, IDE bugs are much, much worse than compiler bugs.

Those IDEs are in an alpha state at best. They are not in a state where you can just submit bug reports but keep using them. Not commercially.

On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 13:22:23 UTC, Don wrote:
> Guys, this wasn't even part of the talk. The point I made in the talk is: at the moment, IDE bugs are much, much worse than compiler bugs.
>
> Those IDEs are in an alpha state at best. They are not in a state where you can just submit bug reports but keep using them. Not commercially.

I have not yet managed to watch the talk (queued!), just noticed the comment that got my attention :( Sorry about that. My point is - they are stable enough so that you may not even encounter a crash for months or more unless you start using on some real code base extensively. No way it can be improved without bug reports. I don't ask you to use them - just check time to time and file issues found. Isn't it how mainstream D development works?

The fact that Mono-D currently has _zero_ crash bugs reported & open is really surprising to me given comments in this thread. Judging by my experience Alex is a very responsive guy when it comes to fixing/tweaking Mono-D but he will need some details for sure.

On Wed, 12 Jun 2013 13:20:30 -0400, Walter Bright <newshound2@digitalmars.com> wrote:
> Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
>  > But you can continue to live in an underwater-mortgage house if you can pay for it.
>
> Yes, but we are talking about the financial difference between owning vs renting.

Right, but my point is, if you don't sell, there is no financial windfall/loss.  If you can afford to "ride out" the low period, you most likely will break even or make money when you do sell.  Home prices pretty much are consistent, and go in cycles.  Almost no houses go down to 0, and traditionally, the value goes up with inflation.  It's normally a pretty safe place to store your net worth.

>  > it was an educated choice.
>
> I'm not saying you're wrong, but the proof of that is if you can repeat the success consistently.

The funny thing is, I'm not in home ownership to make money.  I've lost about half of what I made on the previous sale, if I sold today.  But I don't care.  I just want a house to live in :)

The thing I see as a large barrier to home ownership is the down payment.  If you can get into home ownership, at a good time when prices are low, then you are set pretty much forever.  But you have to have that large initial investment.

Home ownership is much simpler than playing with stocks, but you have to have the right goal.

-Steve

On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 10:48:52 UTC, Regan Heath wrote:
> On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 08:31:03 +0100, Don <turnyourkidsintocash@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 06:58:22 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
>>> On 2013-06-11 14:33, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
>>>> Reddit:
>>>> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1g47df/dconf_2013_metaprogramming_in_the_real_world_by/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hackernews: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5861237
>>>>
>>>> Twitter: https://twitter.com/D_Programming/status/344431490257526785
>>>>
>>>> Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dlang.org/posts/655271701153181
>>>>
>>>> Youtube: http://youtube.com/watch?v=pmwKRYrfEyY
>>>>
>>>> Please drive discussions on the social channels, they help D a lot.
>>>
>>> I really don't understand the problem with IDE. He mentions that he's not interested in any autocompletion, refactoring or anything like that.
>>
>> Actually not. I'm just opposed to any work on them right now. The point is that all of those things are COMPLETELY WORTHLESS if the IDE crashes. It's not just "a bug". It's an absolute showstopper, and I'm begging the community to do something about it.
>> Fix the crashes, and then we can talk.
>
> I use Notepad++ now and have used TextPad in the past.  But, those are just text editors with syntax highlighting (fairly flexibly and simply customisable highlighting BTW).
>
> What are the basic features you would require of a development environment, I am thinking of features which go beyond the basic concept of a text editor, such as:
>
> - The concept of a 'project' or some other collection of source files which can be loaded/displayed in some fashion to make it easier to find/select/edit individual files
>
> - The ability to hook in 'tools' to key presses like "compile" executing "dmd ..." or similar.
>
> ...
>
> R

How about a GUI front end to vibe-d's dub?

I use that extensively on command line and find it very good, I imagine it would be easy enough write a GUI for it...

Jacob Carlborg, el 13 de June a las 13:07 me escribiste:
> On 2013-06-13 09:31, Don wrote:
> 
> >Actually not. I'm just opposed to any work on them right now. The point
> >is that all of those things are COMPLETELY WORTHLESS if the IDE crashes.
> >It's not just "a bug". It's an absolute showstopper, and I'm begging the
> >community to do something about it.
> >Fix the crashes, and then we can talk.
> 
> We have no chance of fixing anything if you don't tell us which IDE's are crashing.

I've always use VIM without any problems. Is not what you typically call an IDE though. I think now some of "our guys" are using Geany moderately successfully, for sure much better than Ecplise and Mono plugins. IIRC, the main problem with those huge IDEs were memory usage and death-files (files that made the IDE crash consistently).

I think there a lot of working advanced editors for D, but IDEs are
quite behind (at least in Linux).

-- 
Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca)                     http://llucax.com.ar/
----------------------------------------------------------------------
GPG Key: 5F5A8D05 (F8CD F9A7 BF00 5431 4145  104C 949E BFB6 5F5A 8D05)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
TIGRE SE COMIO A EMPLEADO DE CIRCO: DETUVIERON A DUEÑO Y DOMADOR
	-- Crónica TV

On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 15:32:03 +0100, Colin Grogan <grogan.colin@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 10:48:52 UTC, Regan Heath wrote:
>> On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 08:31:03 +0100, Don <turnyourkidsintocash@nospam.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 06:58:22 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
>>>> On 2013-06-11 14:33, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
>>>>> Reddit:
>>>>> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1g47df/dconf_2013_metaprogramming_in_the_real_world_by/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hackernews: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5861237
>>>>>
>>>>> Twitter: https://twitter.com/D_Programming/status/344431490257526785
>>>>>
>>>>> Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dlang.org/posts/655271701153181
>>>>>
>>>>> Youtube: http://youtube.com/watch?v=pmwKRYrfEyY
>>>>>
>>>>> Please drive discussions on the social channels, they help D a lot.
>>>>
>>>> I really don't understand the problem with IDE. He mentions that he's not interested in any autocompletion, refactoring or anything like that.
>>>
>>> Actually not. I'm just opposed to any work on them right now. The point is that all of those things are COMPLETELY WORTHLESS if the IDE crashes. It's not just "a bug". It's an absolute showstopper, and I'm begging the community to do something about it.
>>> Fix the crashes, and then we can talk.
>>
>> I use Notepad++ now and have used TextPad in the past.  But, those are just text editors with syntax highlighting (fairly flexibly and simply customisable highlighting BTW).
>>
>> What are the basic features you would require of a development environment, I am thinking of features which go beyond the basic concept of a text editor, such as:
>>
>> - The concept of a 'project' or some other collection of source files which can be loaded/displayed in some fashion to make it easier to find/select/edit individual files
>>
>> - The ability to hook in 'tools' to key presses like "compile" executing "dmd ..." or similar.
>>
>> ...
>>
>> R
>
> How about a GUI front end to vibe-d's dub?
>
> I use that extensively on command line and find it very good, I imagine it would be easy enough write a GUI for it...

Or, a plugin for an existing editor.
Or, a 'tool' configured in an existing editor to run dub in a certain way.

All good ideas.

What I'm driving at here is trying to find Don's minimal requirements beyond stability, in other words trying to define the goal posts to work towards.

R

-- 
Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

On 6/13/2013 2:19 AM, Peter Alexander wrote:
> On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 09:06:00 UTC, Don wrote:
>> Mono-D and Eclipse DDT both have major problems with long pauses while typing
>> (eg 15 seconds unresponsive) and crashes. Both of them even have "modules of
>> death" where just viewing the file will cause a crash. If you're unlucky
>> enough to get one of those open in your default workspace file, the IDE will
>> crash at startup...
>
> That doesn't surprise me.
>
> I really do highly recommend Sublime Text. It was created by a former game dev,
> and he really, really cares about performance. I've opened binary files in it
> that are hundreds of megs and it doesn't even flinch. Just loads it up, and then
> you can scroll through it or jump around at full speed with no pauses or
> momentary glitches. I can't recommend it highly enough.

Back in the bad old DOS days, there were many code editors that worked instantly. No perceptible delays at all. I find it ironic that today, with machines 1000 times faster, some vendors consider it acceptable to have 15 second delays.

On 6/13/2013 6:58 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
> Home ownership is much simpler than playing with stocks,

I have to strongly disagree about that. Buying/selling a stock is a mouse click. Tax accounting is a one liner. Buying/selling a house is a major amount of work. Heck, even once you have a deal, you have a stack of 30 or more papers you gotta sign. Dealing with the taxes on it is a major amount of record keeping - especially if you make any capital improvements.

On 06/13/2013 06:22 AM, Don wrote:

> Guys, this wasn't even part of the talk. The point I made in the talk
> is:

Judging from most of the posts on this thread, your talk was about solar panels. :p

Ali

On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 16:53:38 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
> Back in the bad old DOS days, there were many code editors that worked instantly. No perceptible delays at all. I find it ironic that today, with machines 1000 times faster, some vendors consider it acceptable to have 15 second delays.

Indeed. Software responsiveness is my #1 pet peeve with just about all software.

If a video game can simulate physics, render millions of triangles, stream multiple channels of audio, and process game logic and AI in under 16ms then your crappy text editor can at least have the decency to put a character on the screen when I press a key without having to wait multiple seconds.

From a cold boot, the terminal I use, iTerm, can take upwards of 10 seconds to start up before I can start entering commands.

People just don't care anymore.

In 1977, when Alan Kay was describing DynaBook (basically, the iPad) he said:

"There should be no discernible pause between cause
and effect. One of the metaphors we used when designing
such a system was that of a musical instrument, such as
a flute, which is owned by its user and responds
instantly and consistently to its owner's wishes. Imagine
the absurdity of a one-second delay between blowing a
note and hearing it!"

http://www.vpri.org/pdf/m1977001_dynamedia.pdf

35 years later and we now have the device he described, but the absurdity isn't imaginary.