"AJG" <AJG@nospam.com> wrote in message news:dee448$1sh0$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> Hi,
>
> zwang wrote:
>> Walter wrote:
>>
>>> "Jarrett Billingsley" <kb3ctd2@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:ded3u7$hkf$1@digitaldaemon.com...
>>>
>>>> Awful.  Not only does it look like a beginner HTML coder made the site,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No surprise there, I am a beginner html coder <g>.
>>>
>>>
>>>> it's also a pain to navigate.  I miss the frames.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The problem with frames is that no other web sites use them for navigation,
>>
>>
>> Sun's JDK online documentation uses frames;
>> Microsoft's MSDN documentation uses frames;
>> ...and many more.
>
> I can't speak for the Sun site, but the MSDN navigation menu is a god-forsaken creature best banished to the pits of hell. It's slow, clumsy, overly complex, convoluted, deeply-nested, and is known to crash IE. Worst of all, it uses frames, which are downright sinful by themselves. Avoid such design at _all_ costs.
>
I agree entirely-it's way overdone.
> That's not to say the _content_ of MSDN is bad. In fact, not at all. It's navigation menu that is its Achille's Heel.
>
> Anyway, if you want an example of a superbly useful nav menu, take a look at the ubiquituous IMDB:
>
> http://imdb.com/title/tt0060666/combined
>
> The PHP sites are also very nice in terms of navigation and search.
>
>>
>>> and too many people think it makes the website look clumsy and
>>> old-fashioned. One blind user wrote me that frames made it very
>>> difficult
>>> for him to navigate.
>>>
>>> The last problem with frames is if you wind up at the page directly
>>> from,
>>> say, a search engine, one loses all the navigation.
>>>
>>> Are the navigation problems you're experiencing with it something that
>>> is
>>> fixable without using frames?
>
> Cheers,
> --AJG.

In article <debngi$29kg$2@digitaldaemon.com>, Walter says...
>
>Improvement? Keep it?
>
>www.digitalmars.com/d/index.html
>
>

Walter, the no frames does look cleaner, but I must admit that it does seem a little bit harder now to navigate around in...which I'm sure I'll adjust to it. But it feels strange to post a message in the web interface, and to be left with no link back to forum. Currently, I think this may lead to some mistaken double posting...from yours truly, and others.

After posting, all you're left with is:
---------------------------------------
Posting - Please wait...

Article Posted

Copyright Newsguy News Service
---------------------------------------

Please place a link that'll put one back into the forum, or better yet, back to the list of forums. <g>

Thanks,
David L.

P.S. Feeling a little like E.T. right now, and all I need is a link to the forum homepage. :)

-------------------------------------------------------------------
"Dare to reach for the Stars...Dare to Dream, Build, and Achieve!"
-------------------------------------------------------------------

MKoD: http://spottedtiger.tripod.com/D_Language/D_Main_XP.html

Walter,

You'll have to forgive me, I'm a crazy XHTML freak.

http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A//www.digitalmars.com/d/index.html

In short:

border=1 cellpadding=8 cellspacing=0 -> border="1" cellpadding="8" cellspacing="0"
nowrap> -> nowrap="nowrap">
onFocus -> onfocus
{this.value="";}'> -> {this.value="";}' />
value="www.digitalmars.com"> -> value="www.digitalmars.com" />
value="www.digitalmars.com/d"> -> value="www.digitalmars.com/d" />
value="google-search"> -> value="google-search" />
value="Go"> -> value="Go" />
<hr><br> -> <hr /><br />
<br> -> <br /> (lots of times)
</td></table> -> </td></tr></table>

I wish I had time to put into this myself - suggestions, comments other than validation, javascript code to highlight code snippets (assuming any of it would be worthwhile), but I don't just now...

-[Unknown]

> Improvement? Keep it?
> 
> www.digitalmars.com/d/index.html
> 
> 

In article <deh146$13ar$1@digitaldaemon.com>, Unknown W. Brackets says...
>
>Walter,
>
>You'll have to forgive me, I'm a crazy XHTML freak.
>
>http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A//www.digitalmars.com/d/index.html

What is this "transitional" you speak of?

;)

--AJG.
/1.1 Freak.

It is certainly better than previous. :)

-- 
...........
Dejan Lekic
  http://dejan.lekic.org

Also known as "supporting browsers other than Deer Park and Internet Explorer 7".

-[Unknown]


> In article <deh146$13ar$1@digitaldaemon.com>, Unknown W. Brackets says...
> 
>>Walter,
>>
>>You'll have to forgive me, I'm a crazy XHTML freak.
>>
>>http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A//www.digitalmars.com/d/index.html
> 
> 
> What is this "transitional" you speak of? 
> 
> ;)
> 
> --AJG.
> /1.1 Freak.
> 
> 

Stewart Gordon wrote:
<snip>
> If you don't want to do it anymore, I'll give it a go.  Here's an idea: I'll take one of the pages home to work on, write a stylesheet and then post the result here.  When this is done, if it's OK with everyone then we can work on getting the others converted.
<snip>

Attached is what I've ended up with.

Changes implemented:

- Cleaned up markup in the navigation header and sidebar a bit.  This should be replicated on all pages, with only the content of the sidebar below the <hr> varying from section to section.  Used <ul> rather than &#183; for contents list.  No doubt there's a way of controlling the bullet shape/size in CSS, but I'm not sure what it is.

- Enclosed all paragraphs in <p> tags, and got rid of the misplaced ones.

- Replaced tables used to delimit code with simple <pre>, using CSS to format.

- Removed indentation of whole portions of code (and added a bit of indentation in the stylesheet), and replaced tab characters used to lay out code with spaces.

- Tried to tweak code comments so that line lengths are within the 800x600 settings of my Windows box.  Almost succeeded but not quite.

- Run through spellchecker.  Not that there was much to fix on this particular page, but there's certainly plenty on others.

Open issues:

- What maximum line length should we adhere to for the code examples on the site?

- I haven't as yet got rid of all the presentational HTML markup, but at least what remains is more run of the mill.  Like using a table to lay out the page, and the frequency of <b> and <i> tags - we could replace some of them with something more logical, but others are harder to deal with short of wordier <span> elements.

Stewart.

-- 
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GCS/M d- s:- a->--- UB@ P+ L E@ W++@ N+++ o K- w++@ O? M V? PS- PE- Y?
PGP- t- 5? X? R b DI? D G e++>++++ h-- r-- !y
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

My e-mail is valid but not my primary mailbox.  Please keep replies on the 'group where everyone may benefit.

Stewart Gordon wrote:
<snip>
> Attached is what I've ended up with.

Oops, I meant to run it through the validator before posting it!  The only errors were three instances of <h3> improperly nested inside <a>. But it's simple to fix

    <h3><a name="typedef">Type Defining</a></h3>

and now the page is valid HTML.

Stewart.

-- 
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GCS/M d- s:- a->--- UB@ P+ L E@ W++@ N+++ o K- w++@ O? M V? PS- PE- Y? PGP- t- 5? X? R b DI? D G e++>++++ h-- r-- !y
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

My e-mail is valid but not my primary mailbox.  Please keep replies on the 'group where everyone may benefit.

"Hasan Aljudy" <hasan.aljudy@gmail.com> wrote in message news:defrh3$1uf6$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> yea, you're missing something:
> pull out all the "style" definitions to a .css file, then include it in
> your html.
>
> I'm not sure about the details, but I think:
> <head>
> <!-- what ever you want to put ... -->
> <link href="style.css" rel="stylesheet" type="text/css">
> </head>

Oh yeah, that's what I'm doing already; it's just that it's a bit of a pain to have to copy the:

<div id="header>
    blah blah blah
</div>

<div id="sidebar">
    links to stuff
</div>

Into every page, if it's going to be exactly the same on every page.  What AJG suggested with SSI sounds like what I'm aiming for.

"AJG" <AJG_member@pathlink.com> wrote in message news:defm1k$1hfo$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> What you need, my man, is a little dynamic magic. What kind of server
> setup are
> you running?
>
> The simplest solution to your dilemma is SSI (server-side includes). This
> is a
> very straightforward way of including content from one file into many
> other
> files.
>
> So you would have:
>
> ~/nav.inc.html = contains navigation code.
> ~/index.shtml  = contains index page.
> ~/page1.shtml  = some other page.
>
> Then, in index.shtml and page1.shtml (and every other page you want the
> nav menu
> to appear in), you would INCLUDE nav.inc.html.
>
> The canonical way to do this is with the following:
>
> <!--#include file="nav.inc.html" -->
>
> For that to work, your server must support SSI, and the _container_ page
> must be
> named with a .shtml extension. The _included_ page can have any extension,
> unless it, too, has SSI in it, in which case it must also be .shtml.

That sounds like a good idea.  I'll have to check out if my server supports SSI.  Thanks for the suggestion!

> More elaborate solutions exist using Perl or PHP or even Apache magic, but
> I
> think the simplest, quickest one is SSI. Let me know if it works out for
> you.

Yeah, I really don't know anything about either, but I'm pretty sure my server supports PHP.  Maybe I'll look into that once I start with my web design class :)