I'm sure some thought and planning is now going into the next DConf, so I'd like to make sure people are aware that the conference format that DConf uses is dying off, as explained here:

https://marco.org/2018/01/17/end-of-conference-era

There was a discussion about this in a previous forum thread:

https://forum.dlang.org/post/bnbldtdfeppzjuthxdxa@forum.dlang.org

Jonathan and Mike argue in that thread that DConf is great for the core team to get together in person and hash things out for D with very high-bandwidth interaction, but I pointed out that doesn't justify 95%+ of the attendees being there. If there's a real need for this, maybe get those 8-15 people together in an online video conference or offline retreat, without a bunch of hangers-on and talks.

People are now experimenting with what replaces conferences, we should be doing that too. I came up with some ideas in that thread:

"Have most talks prerecorded by the speaker on their webcam or smartphone, which produce excellent video these days with not much fiddling, and have a couple organizers work with them to get those home-brewed videos up to a certain quality level, both in content and presentation, before posting them online."

I volunteer to help presenters do this.

"Once the videos are all up, set up weekend meetups in several cities [all over the world], where a few livestreamed talks may talk place if some speakers don't want to spend more time producing a pre-recorded talk, but most time is spent like the hackathon, discussing various existing issues from bugzilla in smaller groups or brainstorming ideas, designs, and libraries for the future."

I can setup an event like this in my city, where AFAIK nobody uses D, so most of it would be geared towards introducing them to the language.

I estimate that you could do ten times better at raising awareness and uptake with this approach than the current DConf format, by casting a much wider net, and it would cost about 10X less, ie you get two orders of magnitude better bang for the buck.

At the very least, DConf should just be a big hackathon of self-organizing groups, rather than wasting any time passively imbibing talks next to a hundred other people. I still don't think the cost of getting a hundred people in the same room for 3-4 days would be justified, but at least it would be a step in the right direction.

On Tuesday, 2 October 2018 at 06:26:30 UTC, Joakim wrote:
> I'm sure some thought and planning is now going into the next DConf, so I'd like to make sure people are aware that the conference format that DConf uses is dying off, as explained here:
>
> https://marco.org/2018/01/17/end-of-conference-era
>
> There was a discussion about this in a previous forum thread:
>
> https://forum.dlang.org/post/bnbldtdfeppzjuthxdxa@forum.dlang.org
>
> Jonathan and Mike argue in that thread that DConf is great for the core team to get together in person and hash things out for D with very high-bandwidth interaction, but I pointed out that doesn't justify 95%+ of the attendees being there. If there's a real need for this, maybe get those 8-15 people together in an online video conference or offline retreat, without a bunch of hangers-on and talks.
>
> People are now experimenting with what replaces conferences, we should be doing that too. I came up with some ideas in that thread:
>
> "Have most talks prerecorded by the speaker on their webcam or smartphone, which produce excellent video these days with not much fiddling, and have a couple organizers work with them to get those home-brewed videos up to a certain quality level, both in content and presentation, before posting them online."
>
> I volunteer to help presenters do this.
>
> "Once the videos are all up, set up weekend meetups in several cities [all over the world], where a few livestreamed talks may talk place if some speakers don't want to spend more time producing a pre-recorded talk, but most time is spent like the hackathon, discussing various existing issues from bugzilla in smaller groups or brainstorming ideas, designs, and libraries for the future."
>
> I can setup an event like this in my city, where AFAIK nobody uses D, so most of it would be geared towards introducing them to the language.
>
> I estimate that you could do ten times better at raising awareness and uptake with this approach than the current DConf format, by casting a much wider net, and it would cost about 10X less, ie you get two orders of magnitude better bang for the buck.
>
> At the very least, DConf should just be a big hackathon of self-organizing groups, rather than wasting any time passively imbibing talks next to a hundred other people. I still don't think the cost of getting a hundred people in the same room for 3-4 days would be justified, but at least it would be a step in the right direction.

I highly disagree with this.

I love conferences and meetups.

It's good socially and a conference is not 100% just about the topic it hosts.

Ex. for D conf there is much more than just D. There is also the minor escape from reality to new surroundings, like a mini vacation etc.

Please do not get rid of D Conf, because next year I can finally attend.

On Tuesday, 2 October 2018 at 07:14:54 UTC, bauss wrote:
> On Tuesday, 2 October 2018 at 06:26:30 UTC, Joakim wrote:
>> [...]
>
> I highly disagree with this.
>
> I love conferences and meetups.
>
> It's good socially and a conference is not 100% just about the topic it hosts.

I think you didn't read what I wrote, as nowhere did I say not to gather people in conferences or meetups, but that the traditional conference _format_, as exemplified by previous DConfs, is a waste of time.

> Ex. for D conf there is much more than just D. There is also the minor escape from reality to new surroundings, like a mini vacation etc.

Thank you for making clear that the real reason you and some others like the current format is because you want to have a fun "vacation"- as I pointed out in that earlier thread- rather than anything to do with D or advancing the ecosystem.

On Tuesday, 2 October 2018 at 07:32:58 UTC, Joakim wrote:
> Thank you for making clear that the real reason you and some others like the current format is because you want to have a fun "vacation"- as I pointed out in that earlier thread- rather than anything to do with D or advancing the ecosystem.

Yes, please let's not have any fun at Dconf this year!!! /s

On Tuesday, 2 October 2018 at 08:08:38 UTC, Gary Willoughby wrote:
> On Tuesday, 2 October 2018 at 07:32:58 UTC, Joakim wrote:
>> Thank you for making clear that the real reason you and some others like the current format is because you want to have a fun "vacation"- as I pointed out in that earlier thread- rather than anything to do with D or advancing the ecosystem.
>
> Yes, please let's not have any fun at Dconf this year!!! /s

Then why are you sitting around listening to boring tech talks on your "super-fun" vacation? Get W&A and a bunch of other D devs and go on a boat tour of the Greek islands! You'll have a lot more fun!!! endSarcasm()

While I have never attended dconf itself, conferences itself usually aren't about the talks but about the people you meet and get to interact with.

Op di 2 okt. 2018 om 10:15 schreef Joakim via Digitalmars-d < digitalmars-d@puremagic.com>:

> On Tuesday, 2 October 2018 at 08:08:38 UTC, Gary Willoughby wrote:
> > On Tuesday, 2 October 2018 at 07:32:58 UTC, Joakim wrote:
> >> Thank you for making clear that the real reason you and some others like the current format is because you want to have a fun "vacation"- as I pointed out in that earlier thread- rather than anything to do with D or advancing the ecosystem.
> >
> > Yes, please let's not have any fun at Dconf this year!!! /s
>
> Then why are you sitting around listening to boring tech talks on your "super-fun" vacation? Get W&A and a bunch of other D devs and go on a boat tour of the Greek islands! You'll have a lot more fun!!! endSarcasm()
>

On Tuesday, 2 October 2018 at 07:32:58 UTC, Joakim wrote:
>> Ex. for D conf there is much more than just D. There is also the minor escape from reality to new surroundings, like a mini vacation etc.
>
> Thank you for making clear that the real reason you and some others like the current format is because you want to have a fun "vacation"- as I pointed out in that earlier thread- rather than anything to do with D or advancing the ecosystem.

Thank you for not reading everything I said and literally only the past 5 words; I said it's also that, but not entirely.

On Tuesday, 2 October 2018 at 08:21:11 UTC, maarten van damme wrote:
> While I have never attended dconf itself, conferences itself usually aren't about the talks but about the people you meet and get to interact with.

Since this thread is about replacing the outdated DConf format with two possible in-person formats that feature _more_ interpersonal interaction, I have no idea why you're making this point to me.

On Tuesday, 2 October 2018 at 08:56:36 UTC, bauss wrote:
> On Tuesday, 2 October 2018 at 07:32:58 UTC, Joakim wrote:
>>> Ex. for D conf there is much more than just D. There is also the minor escape from reality to new surroundings, like a mini vacation etc.
>>
>> Thank you for making clear that the real reason you and some others like the current format is because you want to have a fun "vacation"- as I pointed out in that earlier thread- rather than anything to do with D or advancing the ecosystem.
>
> Thank you for not reading everything I said and literally only the past 5 words; I said it's also that, but not entirely.

Everything you wrote before that I addressed with a separate comment which you didn't cut-n-paste, maybe you missed that too.

As for this justification, the only reason you gave is that it's a "escape from reality"/"mini vacation", along with hand-waving about "much more." I can't address reasons you never gave.

On 10/1/18 11:26 PM, Joakim wrote:
> [snip]

I disagree. There is much more to the conference than just a 4-day meetup with talks. The idea that it's just the core 8-15 people with a bunch of hangers-on is patently false. It's not about the conversations I have with the "core" people. It's Schveighoffer, or Atila, or Jonathan, or any of a long list of people who are interested enough in coming. Remember these people self-selected to invest non-trivial treasure to be there, they  are ALL worthy of conversing with.

Is it a "mini-vaction"? Yea, sure, for my wife. For her it's a four day shopping spree in Europe. For me it's four days of wall-to-wall action that leaves me drop-dead exhausted at the end of the day.

Every time I see somebody predicting the end of "X" I roll my eyes. I have a vivid memory of the rise of Skype and videoconferencing in the early 2000's giving way to breathless media reports about how said tools would kill the airlines because people could just meet online for a trivial fraction of the price. However, it's 2018 and the airlines are reaping record profits on the backs of business travelers (ask me how I know). Airlines are even now flying planes with NO standard economy seats for routes that cater specifically to business travelers (e.g. Singapore Airlines A350-900ULR). The order books (and stock prices) of both Airbus and Boeing are at historic highs. There are more conferences, attendees, and business travelers than there has ever been in history, in spite of the great technological leaps in videoconferencing technology in the past two decades.

The market has spoken. Reports of the death of business/conference travel have been greatly exaggerated.

The reason for this is fundamental to human psychology and, as such, is unlikely to change in the future. Humans are social animals, and no matter how hard we have tried, nothing has been able to replace the face-to-face meeting for getting things done. Be it the conversations we have over beers after the talks, or the epic number of PR's that come out the hackathon, or even mobbing the speaker after a talk.

Additionally, the conference serves other "soft" purposes. Specifically, marketing and education. The conference provides legitimacy to DLang and the Foundation both by it's mere existence and as a venue for companies using DLang to share their support (via sponsorships) or announce their products (as seen by the Weka.io announcement at DConf 2018) which further enhances the marketing of both the product being launched and DLang itself.

I have spoken to Walter about DConf numerous times. He has nothing against, and indeed actively encourages, local meetups. But they do not serve the purpose that DConf does. My understanding from my conversations with Walter is that the primary purpose of DConf is to provide a venue that is open to anyone interested to come together and discuss all things D. He specifically does not want something that is only limited to the "core" members. As this suggestion runs precisely counter to the primary stated purpose of DConf it is unlikely to gain significant traction from the D-BDFL.

Yes, it is expensive, but in all the years I've attended, I have not once regretted spending the money. And indeed, coming from the west coast of the US, I have one of the more expensive (and physically taxing) trips to make. I know a number of people who found jobs in D through DConf, would that not make the conference worth it to them?

Something is only expensive if you derive less value from it than it costs. And for many people here, I understand if the cost-benefit analysis does not favor DConf. But calling for an end to DConf simply because it doesn't meet someones cost-benefit ratio is inconsiderate to the rest of us who do find the benefit. Nobody is making you go, and, since you already get everything you want from the YouTube video uploads during the conference, why do you care if the rest of us "waste" our money on attending the conference? That is our choice. Not yours.

-- 
Adam Wilson
IRC: LightBender
import quiet.dlang.dev;

Note: Limiting anything to "core" members is a guaranteed way to create a mono-culture and would inevitably lead to the stagnation of D. Which is why anybody can post to all NG's, even the internals NG.

On Tuesday, 2 October 2018 at 06:26:30 UTC, Joakim wrote:
> I'm sure some thought and planning is now going into the next DConf, so I'd like to make sure people are aware that the conference format that DConf uses is dying off, as explained here:
>
> https://marco.org/2018/01/17/end-of-conference-era
>
> There was a discussion about this in a previous forum thread:
>
> https://forum.dlang.org/post/bnbldtdfeppzjuthxdxa@forum.dlang.org
>
> Jonathan and Mike argue in that thread that DConf is great for the core team to get together in person and hash things out for D with very high-bandwidth interaction, but I pointed out that doesn't justify 95%+ of the attendees being there. If there's a real need for this, maybe get those 8-15 people together in an online video conference or offline retreat, without a bunch of hangers-on and talks.
>
> People are now experimenting with what replaces conferences, we should be doing that too. I came up with some ideas in that thread:
>
> "Have most talks prerecorded by the speaker on their webcam or smartphone, which produce excellent video these days with not much fiddling, and have a couple organizers work with them to get those home-brewed videos up to a certain quality level, both in content and presentation, before posting them online."
>
> I volunteer to help presenters do this.
>
> "Once the videos are all up, set up weekend meetups in several cities [all over the world], where a few livestreamed talks may talk place if some speakers don't want to spend more time producing a pre-recorded talk, but most time is spent like the hackathon, discussing various existing issues from bugzilla in smaller groups or brainstorming ideas, designs, and libraries for the future."
>
> I can setup an event like this in my city, where AFAIK nobody uses D, so most of it would be geared towards introducing them to the language.
>
> I estimate that you could do ten times better at raising awareness and uptake with this approach than the current DConf format, by casting a much wider net, and it would cost about 10X less, ie you get two orders of magnitude better bang for the buck.
>
> At the very least, DConf should just be a big hackathon of self-organizing groups, rather than wasting any time passively imbibing talks next to a hundred other people. I still don't think the cost of getting a hundred people in the same room for 3-4 days would be justified, but at least it would be a step in the right direction.

As I'm sure has been said before, if it were just the talks it probably wouldn't be worth it. But conferences are sooooooooooo much more than just the talks. Its the conversations over breakfast/lunch/dinner/ between talks and long into the night (sometimes too long). Its the networking, the hacking, the face to face. The talks are usually pretty good too.

The conference is definitely not dead, I'm going to one in San José in 2 weeks, sure the talks look really interesting but the main reason is to talk to other people to get stuff done.