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D Language Foundation Weekly Planning Session Update
May 14, 2023
Mike Parker
May 14, 2023
claptrap
May 14, 2023
ag0aep6g
May 14, 2023
Theo
May 15, 2023
Mike Parker
May 15, 2023
ag0aep6g
May 15, 2023
Ali Çehreli
May 15, 2023
ag0aep6g
May 15, 2023
Dennis
May 15, 2023
Dennis
May 15, 2023
ag0aep6g
May 15, 2023
claptrap
May 15, 2023
ag0aep6g
May 15, 2023
WinkySmiley
May 15, 2023
Mike Parker
May 15, 2023
WilliamJames
May 16, 2023
Ali Çehreli
May 16, 2023
WilliamJames
May 16, 2023
Abdulhaq
May 16, 2023
WilliamJames
May 17, 2023
Abdulhaq
May 17, 2023
Guillaume Piolat
May 17, 2023
Mike Parker
May 17, 2023
Don Allen
May 18, 2023
Mike Parker
May 17, 2023
bachmeier
May 17, 2023
ag0aep6g
May 18, 2023
Ali Çehreli
May 18, 2023
Theo
May 17, 2023
Theo
May 17, 2023
Theo
May 18, 2023
zjh
May 17, 2023
Andrew
May 16, 2023
WilliamJames
May 16, 2023
Ali Çehreli
OT: Short review of an unself "paper" Re: D Language Foundation Weekly Planning Session Update
May 19, 2023
Ali Çehreli
May 20, 2023
Theo
May 20, 2023
Ali Çehreli
May 20, 2023
Theo
May 20, 2023
surlymoor
May 20, 2023
Theo
May 21, 2023
Theo
May 20, 2023
Theo
May 20, 2023
Ali Çehreli
May 20, 2023
Theo
May 21, 2023
Theo
May 21, 2023
zjh
May 21, 2023
claptrap
May 21, 2023
claptrap
May 21, 2023
Theo
May 24, 2023
claptrap
May 21, 2023
Theo
May 21, 2023
Theo
May 21, 2023
Theo
May 24, 2023
claptrap
May 20, 2023
Monkyyy
May 22, 2023
Walter Bright
May 15, 2023
Theo
May 15, 2023
Ali Çehreli
May 15, 2023
Theo
May 15, 2023
Ali Çehreli
May 15, 2023
Sergey
May 15, 2023
Ali Çehreli
May 15, 2023
ag0aep6g
May 16, 2023
Ali Çehreli
May 15, 2023
zjh
May 15, 2023
bachmeier
May 17, 2023
Salih Dincer
May 18, 2023
Salih Dincer
May 18, 2023
Salih Dincer
May 18, 2023
Theo
May 20, 2023
Salih Dincer
May 20, 2023
Theo
May 20, 2023
claptrap
May 20, 2023
Theo
May 21, 2023
claptrap
May 21, 2023
Theo
May 21, 2023
Theo
May 21, 2023
claptrap
May 20, 2023
user456
May 17, 2023
bob
May 14, 2023

Last week, in my post titled 'A New Era for the D Community', I announced that Ucora had taken us through IVY, their organizational development program, at no charge. In that thread and elsewhere, the announcement received some positive feedback. I also saw some questions raised and skeptical speculations made. I'll address the two biggest questions here, and then I'll provide a short summary of our first concrete steps toward the new era.

What is IVY?

I said in the post that IVY is "a simple but innovative approach to workflow". Despite its simplicity, not one of us who participated in the program grokked how it could help us in one or two sessions. It took multiple sessions for the light bulbs to go off. It's one of those things that's obvious in hindsight, but might take a bit to get there. Given that, I expect that any attempt I make to describe it in a forum post would not be fruitful.

I can say unequivocally that IVY is not some sort of "consulting propaganda". We went through 15 sessions. Some of us were skeptical in the beginning, but that disappeared as we went along. We didn't spend 20+ hours of our lives mindlessly listening to nonsense. What we have learned is going to help us do things we were clueless about before. From our perspective, having seen the program firsthand, there's no doubt in our minds about that.

As we go along, you'll have more information available from your perspective to make more informed judgments about what it is and how we're applying it. It's not like IVY is Top Secret information. Our guest keynote speaker at DConf '23 is our IVY coach, Saeed Sabeti. His talk is going to be about IVY in the context of the D community. He and I are also discussing an idea to go beyond the talk with a special event at DConf that will bring even more clarity to those who participate.

Sometime soon, I'm going to start reaching out to regular contributors and easing them into the IVY concept. Then I'll reach out to semi-regular contributors and then start looking for new contributors, with a goal of transforming "semi-regular" and "new" to "regular". Non-contributors don't need to know what IVY is, but even so, I'll be happy to help anyone interested to better understand it even if they have no intention of actively contributing to our core projects. You can accept it or reject it, choose to apply it or not. But we expect that those who do accept and apply it will see benefits in their own workflow.

Let's leave it at this definition for now: At its heart, IVY is about communication. It's a means of aligning the goals of organizations and stakeholders by understanding the motivations of each.

What sort of changes are coming?

The short answer: I don't know. That's what we're going to figure out in our new weekly planning sessions.

The longer answer: I have an idea about some of the changes, but when I wrote that post there was nothing concrete. At the end of this post, I can give you something concrete.

So given that, how can I be sure this is a new era for the D community? How can I claim that "this is going to be the most significant change in the D community in the 20 years I've been a part of it"?

Employing IVY is going to completely change the way we operate. That alone is such a huge change that it can't help but have major consequences. It's going to impact the way we make decisions, the way we interact with contributors, the way the community understands what's going on, the way we deal with the ecosystem at large, and impact us in other ways I can't predict.

What we're not going to do is start ordering people around and telling them what to do. This isn't about that kind of management. This is about bringing order to chaos, helping contributors identify potential contributions that best align with their motivations, helping D programmers at large understand where we're going, and generally bring more direction to the D project.

Whether you're a CTO at a company using D or a hobbyist knocking out code in your spare time, you need to have some confidence that the community, the ecosystem, and the language have a future, and especially be able to determine if that future is aligned with your goals. Contributors need to know that their contributions have value, and it helps if they can see beforehand that any potential contributions that align with our interests also align with theirs.

That's the sort of thing that this is all about. We aim to remedy the project management shortcomings we've been suffering from for a few years now. We're confident IVY will help us get there.

The first planning update

And that brings me to the update. We had our first planning meeting at 16:00 UTC on Friday, May 12, 2023. I'm not going to summarize this or any future planning meetings in the same way I summarize the monthlies and the quarterlies. I'm only going to provide updates about what was decided. I also won't be posting updates after every planning meeting, only for those meetings that resulted in something to update (e.g., a decision reached, or a plan of action made).

The following people attended this time:

  • Walter Bright
  • Martin Kinkelin
  • Dennis Korpel
  • Átila Neves
  • Michael Parker

Ali, Iain, Robert, Razvan, and Mathias were unable to attend, but they're up to speed.

Our goal for this meeting was to establish the first steps we should take under our new workflow. We agreed on the following:

  • The vision document we published last year is "on hold". We're going to replace this with something else. I'll have more about that in a future update.
  • We need to establish a set of high-level goals and the tasks and subtasks to achieve them. We have a solid set of data to work with thanks to the feedback I received from my Gripes and Wishes campaign. Over the next few days, each of us is going to think about our high-level goals, specific projects or tasks, language features, etc. that we'd like to see. The others will email me their lists and I'll incorporate them into the existing dataset. I'll publish it for all to see on Thursday. On Friday, we'll start the task of sorting through everything, establishing our goals, and prioritizing tasks. I anticipate this will take multiple meetings to achieve.
  • We need a place to publish our goals and task lists so that potential contributors can decide how and if they'd like to contribute, and so that interested parties can see our progress. We agreed that our GitHub projects page is the place for it. We all have homework to go through the documentation so we can dive in headfirst when we're ready to get going with it.
  • Our future planning meetings will take place on Fridays at 15:00 UTC.

What you can do

Follow my planning updates. Keep an eye on the goals and task lists once they're published. Tell us when you think we're getting it right. Tell us when you think we're getting it wrong. Tell us your ideas. The planning sessions are not a replacement for the monthly and quarterly meetings. If you're using D in production, commercially or free, I'm happy to bring you into the quarterly meetings. And anyone is welcome to join us for one or more monthly meetings to contribute ideas and feedback.

We're serious about this, folks, but we need help to make it happen. If you'd like to pitch in, then just keep an eye out for the right opportunity. Some time, somewhere, a task is bound to pop up that aligns with your goals and motivations. Let me know when you see it.

May 14, 2023

On Sunday, 14 May 2023 at 16:13:37 UTC, Mike Parker wrote:

>

Last week, in my post titled ['A New Era for the D

I hope it works out well for D and all the people who make D happen. I dont really have time to contribute myself, but I am grateful that I have D in my toolbox when I need it.

May 14, 2023

On Sunday, 14 May 2023 at 16:13:37 UTC, Mike Parker wrote:

>

What is IVY?

I said in the post that IVY is "a simple but innovative approach to workflow". Despite its simplicity, not one of us who participated in the program grokked how it could help us in one or two sessions. It took multiple sessions for the light bulbs to go off. It's one of those things that's obvious in hindsight, but might take a bit to get there. Given that, I expect that any attempt I make to describe it in a forum post would not be fruitful.

I can say unequivocally that IVY is not some sort of "consulting propaganda". We went through 15 sessions. Some of us were skeptical in the beginning, but that disappeared as we went along. We didn't spend 20+ hours of our lives mindlessly listening to nonsense. What we have learned is going to help us do things we were clueless about before. From our perspective, having seen the program firsthand, there's no doubt in our minds about that.

As we go along, you'll have more information available from your perspective to make more informed judgments about what it is and how we're applying it. It's not like IVY is Top Secret information. Our guest keynote speaker at DConf '23 is our IVY coach, Saeed Sabeti. His talk is going to be about IVY in the context of the D community. He and I are also discussing an idea to go beyond the talk with a special event at DConf that will bring even more clarity to those who participate.

Sometime soon, I'm going to start reaching out to regular contributors and easing them into the IVY concept. Then I'll reach out to semi-regular contributors and then start looking for new contributors, with a goal of transforming "semi-regular" and "new" to "regular". Non-contributors don't need to know what IVY is, but even so, I'll be happy to help anyone interested to better understand it even if they have no intention of actively contributing to our core projects. You can accept it or reject it, choose to apply it or not. But we expect that those who do accept and apply it will see benefits in their own workflow.

Let's leave it at this definition for now: At its heart, IVY is about communication. It's a means of aligning the goals of organizations and stakeholders by understanding the motivations of each.

That's a lot of words not answering the question in the heading.

The most tangible parts of those paragraphs:

  • 'IVY is "a simple but innovative approach to workflow"',
  • 'not some sort of "consulting propaganda"',
  • 'not [...] Top Secret information',
  • 'about communication',
  • 'a means of aligning the goals of organizations and stakeholders'.

I still have no clue what IVY is supposed to be. Your posts also don't make me want to know. The impression I got so far is that IVY is a whole lot of hot air.

I have to assume that you don't tell us what IVY actually means, because telling people what IVY means is Ucora's product. It's what they're making their money with, so you can't just give it away for free. Fair enough.

But that raises the question: The DLF team went through the program free of charge. If I, a lowly contributor, want to experience the life-altering joy of IVY, do I have to pay? What does it cost? Is all this over-excited hype talk just an ad for what Ucora is selling?

May 14, 2023
On Sunday, 14 May 2023 at 20:09:50 UTC, ag0aep6g wrote:
>
> That's a lot of words not answering the question in the heading.

It's just a **proprietory** acronym for principles long examined in psychological/social/behavioural science.

Don't expect it to be explained here, otherwise some would lose their consulting fees.

But getting humans to act in syncronicity is an age old problem, and there are many ways that humans have come up with, to achieve that.

For some, it comes as an epiphany.

More often than not, you're really just trying to herd cats.

One could use religion, politics, philosophy, and any number of other mind altering strategies to get people syncronised.

Personally, I just want a programming langauge that does what I want it to do.

May 15, 2023

On Sunday, 14 May 2023 at 20:09:50 UTC, ag0aep6g wrote:

>

I still have no clue what IVY is supposed to be. Your posts also don't make me want to know. The impression I got so far is that IVY is a whole lot of hot air.

I have to assume that you don't tell us what IVY actually means, because telling people what IVY means is Ucora's product. It's what they're making their money with, so you can't just give it away for free. Fair enough.

But that raises the question: The DLF team went through the program free of charge. If I, a lowly contributor, want to experience the life-altering joy of IVY, do I have to pay? What does it cost? Is all this over-excited hype talk just an ad for what Ucora is selling?

I'm not saying more about it right now because it's pointless for me to explain IVY in detail in a forum post. It took us multiple sessions to understand how it's going to help us. I'm going to have one-on-one chats with contributors to bring them onboard because they'll need to know about it in order for all of us to work with each other more effectively. There's not a pressing need for non-contributors to understand it, but we'd still love them for them to over time.

Anyone who wants to learn more about IVY is welcome to contact me and we can set something up. I'll explain it in as many chat sessions as we need, and we don't have to pay Ucora anything. But I do want to focus on regular contributors first.

Ucora has put no restrictions on what we can say about IVY to anyone. Their business is built on D and they want D to succeed. Their Director of Organizational Development is going to be teaching people about IVY at DConf and has offered to continue working with us. Just as Symmetry is supporting us with financial contributions, Ucora is supporting us with their organizational development program. The sessions we completed were just the beginning of this relationship.

Look, I'm putting these posts out there to let people know what's going on. If they sound like "over-excited hype talk", it's because I'm genuinely excited. If it doesn't interest you, that's fine. I'm not trying to sell IVY to you. I'm trying to let you know that we're making a concerted effort to solve the problems we've been suffering from for years. IVY is just the tool we're using to do it.

When I put out the call for Gripes and Wishes, you said the following:

"I have no reason to believe that this new channel is going to be more effective than the previous ones. Also, I want my airing of grievances to be public, not neatly hidden away in your personal emails."

I'm publishing the feedback this week. On Friday, we'll start going through it all to sort it, prioritize it, and assign it. What we learned in the IVY program will help us do that more effectively.

May 15, 2023
To me it sounds exciting.

It seems that it as a program has allowed for self reflection about yourself and others motivations on how to progress forward positively.

If I'm right, it sounds very much like its all about promoting motivation by therapy rather than waffle about methodologies.
May 15, 2023
On 15.05.23 04:59, Mike Parker wrote:
> I'm not saying more about it right now because it's pointless for me to explain IVY in detail in a forum post. It took us multiple sessions to understand how it's going to help us. I'm going to have one-on-one chats with contributors to bring them onboard because they'll need to know about it in order for all of us to work with each other more effectively. There's not a pressing need for non-contributors to understand it, but we'd still love them for them to over time.

Why is it impossible for you to explain IVY in a forum post? Why does it need one-to-one chats to do that?

If I get invited to the backroom of the event, and I'm told my friends can't come with, I don't get excited. I get suspicious. Am I being recruited into a cult? Are my organs about to be harvested?

[...]
> Look, I'm putting these posts out there to let people know what's going on. If they sound like "over-excited hype talk", it's because I'm genuinely excited. If it doesn't interest you, that's fine. I'm not trying to sell IVY to you. I'm trying to let you know that we're making a concerted effort to solve the problems we've been suffering from for years. IVY is just the tool we're using to do it.

I would love to read about IVY. Here. I am not interested in personal chats with you.

You do realize that I am a contributor. Not so much lately, but I made some solid contributions in the past. That makes me a prime target for your efforts, no? Get me back on board, motivate me to push D to excellence?

For this contributor here, IVY has achieved one thing so far: It put another brick in the wall between D's leadership and me.

> When I put out the call for Gripes and Wishes, [you said the following](https://forum.dlang.org/post/rrwqvygxrgaitcvhoohh@forum.dlang.org):
> 
> "I have no reason to believe that this new channel is going to be more effective than the previous ones. Also, I want my airing of grievances to be public, not neatly hidden away in your personal emails."
> 
> I'm publishing the feedback this week. On Friday, we'll start going through it all to sort it, prioritize it, and assign it. What we learned in the IVY program will help us do that more effectively.

Meanwhile, the bug I mentioned in that post is still open.

If you want to use Agile, or Waterfall, or IVY, or whatever, go ahead. But it better help get bugs fixed. Otherwise, it's a waste of time.
May 14, 2023
On 5/14/23 13:09, ag0aep6g wrote:

> The impression I got so far is that IVY is a whole
> lot of hot air.

It may or may not be. What I know about motivation is, once you find a person excited about something, the last thing you want to do is try to convince them that they shouldn't be.

> I have to assume that you don't tell us what IVY actually means, because
> telling people what IVY means is Ucora's product.

Wrong assumption.

> It's what they're
> making their money with, so you can't just give it away for free. Fair
> enough.

But that's not the answer.

> But that raises the question: The DLF team went through the program free
> of charge. If I, a lowly contributor, want to experience the
> life-altering joy of IVY, do I have to pay?

No.

> What does it cost?

Hiç.

> Is all
> this over-excited

May I suggest don't try to kill excitement. It never helps.

> hype talk just an ad for what Ucora is selling?

No. What you are seeing is some honest D people trying to help D.

Ali

May 15, 2023
On Monday, 15 May 2023 at 02:59:34 UTC, Mike Parker wrote:
>
> ..

If you want to boost my dopamine levels, you can do that much more easily than trying to explain IVY to me.

Just announce D3 (with the following 2 features).

(1) D3 will be @safe by default. There is no need to annotate with @safe anymore. In order to compile any code that is annotated with @system or @trusted, you need to use a new compiler argument: -unsafe. All code compiled without -unsafe, is treated as if it had been annoted with @safe.

(2) D3 will include the ability to annotate a class level member as being private to that class (that is, private to other code within the same module, including unit-tests.) - the same as you already do in Swift. Module-private remains the default however.

ok. Now I'm motivated. No IVY is even needed.

May 14, 2023
On 5/14/23 22:49, ag0aep6g wrote:

> Why is it impossible for you to explain IVY in a forum post?

Do you remember how many sessions it took for Mike and others to understand how IVY could help?

> Why does it
> need one-to-one chats to do that?

I don't know. Some human things are just like that.

> I'm told my friends
> can't come with,

There is something wrong here.

> Am I being
> recruited into a cult?

That exact joke was made... by me! :)

> I would love to read about IVY. Here. I am not interested in personal
> chats with you.

Somehow that sounds hurtful.

> You do realize that I am a contributor.

I always looked up to you and I am ever grateful. However, there are different ways of contributing and some behavior can be detrimental.

> motivate me to push D to
> excellence?

Erm? Isn't this all about exactly that? And you want it as you insist on trying to kill excitement?

> For this contributor here, IVY has achieved one thing so far: It put
> another brick in the wall between D's leadership and me.

I don't think it was IVY that did that.

> Meanwhile, the bug I mentioned in that post is still open.
>
> If you want to use Agile, or Waterfall, or IVY, or whatever, go ahead.
> But it better help get bugs fixed. Otherwise, it's a waste of time.

Time can be wasted in multitude of ways.

Ali

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