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October 12, 2009
Re: dmd support for IDEs
On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 12:22 AM, Nick Sabalausky <a@a.a> wrote:
> Jeremie Pelletier" <jeremiep@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:hats2b$as0$1@digitalmars.com...
>> Lutger wrote:
>>> Jacob Carlborg wrote:
>>> ...
>>>> As far as I know neither Qt(d) or gtkD uses native controls on platforms
>>>> other than linux, which to me is unacceptable. The look especially on
>>>> mac.
>>>
>>> Qt used to try and look like native controls, but now it uses them
>>> directly.
>>
>> It has pros and cons, Firefox too has the native look and feel without
>> using the native controls, so it saves on the overhead of tons of GDI
>> handles and can render the entire GUI in cairo.
>
> I use FF a lot and umm...no it doesn't. Not remotely. It's always stood out
> as every bit of a blatant GTK app as GAIM, GIMP, or Thunderbird. As soon as
> I can find a browser with equivilents too all my essential hacks (*cough*
> extensions) and *real* controls (which rules out IE and Opera. And
> Chrome/Safari... AH HA HA HA!), then I'm ditching this garbage.

..huh? What OS are you on? It looks perfectly native on XP, Ubuntu,
and Kubuntu for me..
October 12, 2009
Re: dmd support for IDEs
Jeremie Pelletier wrote:
> I agree however that GTK being in C is rather annoying, C is a great 
> language but GUIs is one area where OOP really shines.

	Note that Gtk *is* object oriented despite being in C...

		Jerome
-- 
mailto:jeberger@free.fr
http://jeberger.free.fr
Jabber: jeberger@jabber.fr
October 12, 2009
Re: dmd support for IDEs
Jarrett Billingsley wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 12:22 AM, Nick Sabalausky <a@a.a> wrote:
>> Jeremie Pelletier" <jeremiep@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:hats2b$as0$1@digitalmars.com...
>>> Lutger wrote:
>>>> Jacob Carlborg wrote:
>>>> ...
>>>>> As far as I know neither Qt(d) or gtkD uses native controls on platforms
>>>>> other than linux, which to me is unacceptable. The look especially on
>>>>> mac.
>>>> Qt used to try and look like native controls, but now it uses them
>>>> directly.
>>> It has pros and cons, Firefox too has the native look and feel without
>>> using the native controls, so it saves on the overhead of tons of GDI
>>> handles and can render the entire GUI in cairo.
>> I use FF a lot and umm...no it doesn't. Not remotely. It's always stood out
>> as every bit of a blatant GTK app as GAIM, GIMP, or Thunderbird. As soon as
>> I can find a browser with equivilents too all my essential hacks (*cough*
>> extensions) and *real* controls (which rules out IE and Opera. And
>> Chrome/Safari... AH HA HA HA!), then I'm ditching this garbage.
> 
> ..huh? What OS are you on? It looks perfectly native on XP, Ubuntu,
> and Kubuntu for me..

Same here, Firefox/Thunderbird looks great in 7 and Ubuntu. Of course if 
you are using KDE and build firefox against GTK you won't have the look 
you're expecting, you need to build firefox against Qt for that :)
October 12, 2009
Re: dmd support for IDEs
Jérôme M. Berger wrote:
> Jeremie Pelletier wrote:
>> I agree however that GTK being in C is rather annoying, C is a great 
>> language but GUIs is one area where OOP really shines.
> 
>     Note that Gtk *is* object oriented despite being in C...
> 
>         Jerome

It's a sorry hack, you have to use casts everywhere you'd rely on 
polymorphism in D or C+ and its harder to remember, read, code, 
maintain, and doesn't have any performance gains over C++, the explicit 
struct pointer in C is the implicit 'this' in C++ and non-virtual 
methods can be optimized as direct calls with no vtbl indirections.

I tried gtkD and I don't like using an OOP layer on top of a C interface 
because that adds overhead for the exact same features, most good GUI 
libraries should abstract the platform anyways so GTK is usually only 
seen there and not in user code.

It's still more fun to use than the Windows' windowing API, which 
doesn't even support layout objects such as boxes and grids, now that's 
total pain!
October 12, 2009
Re: dmd support for IDEs
On 11/10/2009 23:13, Walter Bright wrote:
> Leandro Lucarella wrote:
>> Walter Bright, el 11 de octubre a las 02:38 me escribiste:
>>> Lutger wrote:
>>>> What about file/line/column of the symbol? Is this much work /
>>>> hard work to add?
>>> file/line of course, but I don't see a point to column.
>>
>> See Clang error messages:
>> http://clang.llvm.org/diagnostics.html
>>
>> That's *nice* =)
>>
>
> I agree, it looks good on paper.
>
> In fact, I implemented it in the C and C++ compiler from the beginning
> (1982 or so). It's still in dmc, try it - it'll print out the error
> message, followed by the source text of the offending line, followed by
> a ^ under where things went wrong.
>
> Nobody cared.
>
> Nobody has ever commented on it - and there have been hundreds of
> thousands of users of it. No magazine review ever mentioned it. When I
> mention it to people as "cool, look at this" they never respond. When
> the conversation is about the quality of error messages, that feature
> never comes up.
>
> So I dropped it for dmd.
>
> Nobody noticed.
>
> Nobody asked why it was done for dmc, and not for dmd. Nobody asked for
> it. Nothing. (Until now.)
>
> So I am hard pressed to believe this is a worthwhile feature. There is a
> cost to it in memory consumption and compiler execution time, so it's
> not quite free.

You assume everyone who uses DMD also uses DMC which is not necessarily 
the case.
More importantly, while this is a good feature, it is far better to have 
squiggly red lines in the IDE. I for one rely on those lines a lot.
October 12, 2009
Re: dmd support for IDEs
On 12/10/2009 07:33, Jeremie Pelletier wrote:
> Jérôme M. Berger wrote:
>> Jeremie Pelletier wrote:
>>> I agree however that GTK being in C is rather annoying, C is a great
>>> language but GUIs is one area where OOP really shines.
>>
>> Note that Gtk *is* object oriented despite being in C...
>>
>> Jerome
>
> It's a sorry hack, you have to use casts everywhere you'd rely on
> polymorphism in D or C+ and its harder to remember, read, code,
> maintain, and doesn't have any performance gains over C++, the explicit
> struct pointer in C is the implicit 'this' in C++ and non-virtual
> methods can be optimized as direct calls with no vtbl indirections.
>
> I tried gtkD and I don't like using an OOP layer on top of a C interface
> because that adds overhead for the exact same features, most good GUI
> libraries should abstract the platform anyways so GTK is usually only
> seen there and not in user code.
>
> It's still more fun to use than the Windows' windowing API, which
> doesn't even support layout objects such as boxes and grids, now that's
> total pain!

what about MS' WPF? It has all the bells and whistles of modern UI, 
doesn't it?
October 12, 2009
Re: dmd support for IDEs
Nick Sabalausky wrote:
> Jeremie Pelletier" <jeremiep@gmail.com> wrote in message 
> news:hats2b$as0$1@digitalmars.com...
>> Lutger wrote:
>>> Jacob Carlborg wrote:
>>> ...
>>>> As far as I know neither Qt(d) or gtkD uses native controls on platforms
>>>> other than linux, which to me is unacceptable. The look especially on 
>>>> mac.
>>> Qt used to try and look like native controls, but now it uses them 
>>> directly.
>> It has pros and cons, Firefox too has the native look and feel without 
>> using the native controls, so it saves on the overhead of tons of GDI 
>> handles and can render the entire GUI in cairo.
> 
> I use FF a lot and umm...no it doesn't. Not remotely. It's always stood out 
> as every bit of a blatant GTK app as GAIM, GIMP, or Thunderbird. As soon as 
> I can find a browser with equivilents too all my essential hacks (*cough* 
> extensions) and *real* controls (which rules out IE and Opera. And 
> Chrome/Safari... AH HA HA HA!), then I'm ditching this garbage. 

Are you talking about FF 3.5? It's a really poor product. Crashes all 
the time, has some terrible UI misfeatures. I'm really amazed they 
shipped it in that condition.
October 12, 2009
Re: dmd support for IDEs
Sun, 11 Oct 2009 09:39:32 -0500, Ellery Newcomer thusly wrote:

> Denis Koroskin wrote:
>> On Sun, 11 Oct 2009 05:19:56 +0400, Walter Bright
>> <newshound1@digitalmars.com> wrote:
>> 
>> If anyone is interested and is willing to test and/or help, I will
>> gladly share my code.
> 
> Oooo.. You should put that on dsource or somewhere. Hacking D sounds
> like a lot more fun than hacking C++. I wouldn't mind helping out on
> this one.

Wow, I am pretty sure I have already seen a D port of dmd on dsource. Was 
there a good reason to start yet another port of it?
October 12, 2009
Re: dmd support for IDEs
Sun, 11 Oct 2009 12:44:08 -0400, Jeremie Pelletier thusly wrote:

> language_fan wrote:
>> Well since there is already a project working on an Eclipse plugin, I
>> see little use for other IDEs at the moment. The D community is rather
>> small and only a small amount of people are capable of developing and
>> willing to donate their free time on free IDE development (commercial
>> IDEs have small potential now that
>> Netbeans/Eclipse/IntelliJ/KDevelop/Visual Studio dominate the market).
>> So why not concentrate on fixing the spec and fixing compiler bugs
>> instead of building a modest IDE support no one will use?
> 
> Eclipse is heavy, slow and often unresponsive. I use poseidon myself
> because it is light and fast and I don't require much more from an IDE
> at the moment.

If you turn off all the advanced features of Eclipse (spell checking, 
interactive parsing & type checking etc), it will become a lot more 
responsive. You can even uninstall many of the plugins if you really do 
not need them. I recommend firing up the latest development build with 
the latest 1.6 jvm. It will take couple of seconds for the JIT to spot 
the hot spots after starting up. Of course Poseidon is faster *now* that 
it lacks all the advanced features, but once you start adding more, it 
will eventually grind to a halt.
October 12, 2009
Re: dmd support for IDEs
>> Eclipse is heavy, slow and often unresponsive. I use poseidon myself
>> because it is light and fast and I don't require much more from an
>> IDE at the moment.

You can try to download just bare Eclipse platform (which is just text editor) 
and install descent into it using Eclipse software updates. It starts up 
faster than C or Java version Eclipse and there is only D related stuff in 
the UI.

http://download.eclipse.org/eclipse/downloads/drops/R-3.5.1-200909170800/index.php
Under "Platform runtime binary"
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