On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 15:26:09 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote:
> The entire reason I've avoided web-based email clients like the plague is because I've yet to see one that handles tree threading correctly

Oh, I also avoid web-based email clients... though one of the biggest PROBLEMS I have with gmail is that it attempts to thread things automatically!

I just want everything presented to me, in chronological order. My brain has a storage capacity of more than 800 quadrillion bits and a total linear computation speed of 60 trillion operations per second. It is equipped with sophisticated hardware-accelerated pattern recognition algorithms capable of multi-dimensional spacial processing as well as state-of-the-art natural language handling.

Most attempts at computer assistance do little beyond hindering the operation of my superior neural net. Just feed me the data!

> Without proper tree threading there's simply no way anyone can keep track of things past that point.

I at least skim *every* post made in the ng, usually close to real time as they come in. The content is then digested and indexed in my brain for future use (and the undigested data is still available through the computer and my local client can look it up by date, poster, content, or yes, the threading headers all with ease)

I often see people complain about how they find 50 emails a day to be completely unmanageable. I've handled an average of about 350 per day, every day, for about six years now. It takes about 10% of my work day, which isn't insignificant, but being aware of what's going on - sometimes, one person's problem today is my answer tomorrow - brings benefits in excess of the cost.

I have to say I agree that, for better or for worse, this thread alone demonstrates an occasional aggressiveness that puts me off, never mind women who are, generally speaking, less likely to weather the tone of voice often used here.

Karabuta seems to be a non-native English speaker and got laid into for using the wrong word for women. He took the lashing in good spirits but it doesn't bode well for the thinner skinned who might otherwise have a valuable contribution to make.


On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 08:39:01 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote:
> On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 04:05:53 UTC, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:
>> On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 at 10:46:22 UTC, QAston wrote:
>>> I could point to the building you're sitting in. Most likely made almost exclusively by males.
>>
>> LOL. I happened to spend most the day today with a group of women... building something. (I was there too, of course, but I'm practically one of the sisters myself and they all did more work than me anyway. The other five are all non-controversially women.)
>>
>> I read this message out loud to them. We all got a good laugh.
>
> Yes, it was funny to me as my mother worked as an industrial designer in the 1960s and designed a top-of-the-line radio (within a group of men) called Tandberg Huldra 9. She spent a lot of time on the backlight, and came up with acrylic backlight as a novel solution (at that point in time). She wanted the front to be all black, but the head of the company didn't want that, so it was all aluminium coloured like the top image:
>
> http://nrhf.no/Tandberg/TR%20Radio/Tandberg%20Huldra/T'Huldra-9.html
>
> After she quit Tandberg released the version with only the bottom half in black...  Which looks a bit silly. But guess what, some decades later audiophile equipment was black aluminium and acrylic backlights was standard... I am pretty sure that there are many "invisible" women involved with the products we use, but maybe men are spending more effort at getting their name published. Incidentally, she had to correct a newspaper earlier this year that wrongly attributed her design to a male designer (he was hired after she quit)...
>
> Later when she was teaching furniture design/interior architects, most students were female, so they tried to get some men in as well in order to get a more mixed group. Most educators know that having some diversity in a group is good for the social dynamics. The interaction in mixed groups are usually more interesting than all-male or all-female groups.
>
>
>> Y'all should stick to arguing about the color of the bikeshed.
>
> Maybe or maybe not, but meta discussions are important for changing norms within a forum. If a given tone means that some women hesitate to join in, it probably also means that a group of men also hestitate to join in. Adjusting the tone might mean that more people will participate which would be better for all.

On 24/03/2016 09:16, Walter Bright wrote:
> On 3/24/2016 1:41 AM, Mike Parker wrote:
>> I'm not knocking Vladimir's software. I ditched my newsreader some
>> time ago and
>> use the web interface exclusively now. Much more convenient. We can
>> debate the
>> usefulness of specific forum features that are out there in the wild
>> these days,
>> but the main issue is that the most basic features (like editing and
>> deleting
>> posts) are not practical when the central database belongs to the NNTP
>> server.
>
> Ironically, I've used various "modern" forum software that didn't allow
> post editing, either. Post editing has its downside, as well. Replies to
> a post may no longer make sense if it was altered.
>
> One possibility is to have the forum software delay actually posting it
> for 5 minutes, and you can have second thoughts.

Post editing can also be restricted by a time limit in web forum software. In any case, in a community like this, you'd expect that nearly all edits would be minor edits, that would not change the meaning of the original post, but just clarify it (or fix errors).

Alternatively, some software allows seeing the edit history of a post, so there is always that as a fallback if someone where to edit inappropriately. In particular Discourse supports that (which is the forum software used by Rust, and also an alternative Go forum - https://forum.golangbridge.org/ )


>
>> I'm not coming at this from a personal perspective, but from that of a
>> new D
>> user who wasn't necessarily around during the height of the newsgroup
>> craze.
>> More than once I've seen people post here looking for a way to edit or
>> delete
>> their posts. We recently had a suggestion her for a means of marking
>> threads as
>> important or useful. These are the sorts of thing that people *expect*
>> today,
>> whether everyone finds them beneficial or not. It's just one more
>> thing about
>> the D community that doesn't jibe with expectations, like the way the
>> web site
>> looked before the revamp. It's not a major issue in and of itself,
>> just an
>> annoyance and a lack of convenience, but taken together as a part of
>> the whole
>> it's one more point of complaint. One that could be easily resolved.
>
> I've used a lot of other forum software on the web, and most of them
> have maddening gaps in their feature set, and have the look/feel of
> being written by dilettantes as their first project.
>

I don't care about how many crap web forum software is out there, I only care about the good ones. The point of using modern forum software is not to just *any* software out there that just happened to be written recently.

In particular, have you tried Discourse?

> For example, take a look at the comments for this article:
>
>
> http://mynorthwest.com/813/2938339/Should-President-Obama-have-come-right-home-after-the-attacks-in-Brussels
>
>
> Note the lack of tree threading, and the very low information density.
>
> BTW, the distributed nature of NNTP I regard as a major asset. The
> aggregate of the forum posts are an immense resource for D, and having
> it in a central location in a proprietary format is pretty risky.

Discourse is free & open: http://www.discourse.org/ , so there are none of those issues.

>
> Also, the C++ illuminati communicate via a mailing list
> (lists.isocpp.org), pretty much equivalent to NNTP. So does Linux. We
> aren't really out of step with serious developers. Are they old codgers,
> or are they on to something overlooked by others? Another thing I like
> about this approach is that posts are restricted to text rather than
> emoji and pictures and pretty styling - i.e. actual content.
>

Are they old codgers? Y...yes?
Let me rephrase that, are you really asking if the C++ community can be taken *face-value* as example of modern practices? No, they can't. That is not to say there aren't brilliant developers there, there sure are. That isn't to say either that there aren't individual C++ coders who understand modern practices quite well. But to take the ideology of the community and C++ as examples of modern technology and practices... hell, no.

But more importantly, you have to take legacy considerations into account. There's massive history in the newsgroups, people are used to it, people are used to their NNTP clients, people have workflows around it, etc.

It's a very different question to ask if one should use NNTP or a forum software for a *new* community, than to change an existing community to a different forum system. And C++ is all about legacy, compatibility, dinosaurs...


> It's hard to find any actual content buried in all the noise:
>
>    http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=112797.0
>

*sigh* You can't compare a forum community (and a forum software) for essentially an *entertainment* hobby, to a forum community (and a forum software) built for *technical*, *professional* discussion.

In particular there are no post signatures in Discourse (or they are disabled in the Discourse forums I visit). There are emojis, though.💖

>  no threading,
>
>

Of all these, I agree (tree) threading can be an issue (see my OP). However, ultimately if there are shortcomings in web forum software these *can* be addressed, eventually.

But most shortcomings of NNTP are innate and cannot be addressed, not in a proper way.
-- 
Bruno Medeiros
https://twitter.com/brunodomedeiros

On 24/03/2016 09:39, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
>> It also allows much easier moderation, not relying on the news server
>> admin to delete spam and any posts that go beyond the bounds of
>> propriety.
>
> I don't think we have an issue with moderation.
>
> The spam filter could be a bit better, I suppose. Then again, we get
> MUCH less spam than any off-the-shelf forum software, since the spambot
> authors target them specifically, thus their spambots will find their
> way in much easier.

My issue with having to register to post or not, wasn't really about spam. It was more about troll posts, flame-bait posts, and anonymity.

-- 
Bruno Medeiros
https://twitter.com/brunodomedeiros

On 24/03/2016 09:16, Walter Bright wrote:
> We're doing just fine with NNTP and Vladimir's forum software.

And this is one of the reasons why I've essentially moved from D to Rust. Yes, the forum software. Yes, this is not related to the language, nor with the toolchain, nor with actually developing code in either language. So it has a very, very small impact....

On the surface at least.

It is, *however*, illustrative of a larger issue I have with the mindset and attitude of the core D team: that there are several aspects there that I consider antiquated, or narrow-minded. Please don't take this as a personal offense Walter, it's not meant as such. But:

Using old communication software like NNTP is one example of that. Compare with Rust's Discourse.

Not understanding the importance of package managers is another (DUB still not part of official distro?) Compare with Rust's Cargo.

Not understanding the importance of IDE tooling is another. Compare with Rust planned support for IDE tooling from the Mozilla team itself. (https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/blob/master/text/1317-ide.md)

Even the fact that we are using custom web forum software (Vladimir's forum) draws a strong parallel with the DigitalMars vs. LLVM backend story. I mean, Vladimir's forum is an impressive piece of work, and it's a really good demo of D's capabilities. That said, it's the work of 1-2 people, it cannot stand against the capabilities and polish of something like Discourse which is developed by a much bigger team, and used by many different organizations.

-- 
Bruno Medeiros
https://twitter.com/brunodomedeiros

On 24/03/2016 09:16, Walter Bright wrote:
>
> We're doing just fine with NNTP and Vladimir's forum software.

And this is one of the reasons why I've essentially moved from D to Rust. Yes, the forum software. Yes, this is not related to the language, nor with the toolchain, nor with actually developing code in either language. So it has a very, very small impact....

On the surface at least.

It is, *however*, illustrative of a larger issue I have with the mindset and attitude of the core D team: that there are several aspects there that I consider antiquated, or narrow-minded. Please don't take this as a personal offense Walter, it's not meant as such. But:

Using old communication software like NNTP is one example of that. Compare with Rust's Discourse.

Not understanding the importance of package managers is another (DUB still not part of official distro?) Compare with Rust's Cargo.

Not understanding the importance of IDE tooling is another. Compare with Rust planned support for IDE tooling from the Mozilla team itself. (https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/blob/master/text/1317-ide.md)


Even the fact that we are using custom web forum software (Vladimir's forum) draws a strong parallel with the DigitalMars vs. LLVM backend story. I mean, Vladimir's forum is an impressive piece of work, and it's a really good demo of D's capabilities. That said, it's the work of 1-2 people, it cannot stand against the capabilities and polish of something like Discourse which is developed by a much bigger team, and used by many different organizations.

-- 
Bruno Medeiros
https://twitter.com/brunodomedeiros

On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 16:50:05 UTC, Bruno Medeiros wrote:
>
> Not understanding the importance of package managers is another (DUB still not part of official distro?) Compare with Rust's Cargo.
>

I couldn't agree more (not about the forum which I think is not inferior to Discourse). The package manager is the single most critical advantage over older languages. The user interacts with it and not compilers.

The Rust team understood the significance of it and now they have one of the friendliest package manager out there. People rarely complain about cargo which is a feat in an rather despised category.

On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 16:46:53 UTC, Bruno Medeiros wrote:
> It is, *however*, illustrative of a larger issue I have with the mindset and attitude of the core D team: that there are several aspects there that I consider antiquated, or narrow-minded. Please don't take this as a personal offense Walter, it's not meant as such. But:

Sorry, but this is complete FUD.

> Not understanding the importance of package managers is another (DUB still not part of official distro?) Compare with Rust's Cargo.

Dub is not part of the distro because the Dub maintainers don't consider it ready. Everyone wants it packaged. We are waiting for it to stabilize. If you want to help, start with https://github.com/D-Programming-Language/dub/issues.

> Not understanding the importance of IDE tooling is another. Compare with Rust planned support for IDE tooling from the Mozilla team itself. (https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/blob/master/text/1317-ide.md)

No, this is completely understood. We simply do not have the resources for that. I think we've done everything reasonable to promote Visual D, for example - it's linked from the website, it's in the GitHub organization, it's in the installer, what more do you want? Unlike Mozilla, we can't hire people to work on things full-time.

> Even the fact that we are using custom web forum software (Vladimir's forum) draws a strong parallel with the DigitalMars vs. LLVM backend story.

No.

> I mean, Vladimir's forum is an impressive piece of work, and it's a really good demo of D's capabilities. That said, it's the work of 1-2 people, it cannot stand against the capabilities and polish of something like Discourse which is developed by a much bigger team, and used by many different organizations.

I take offense to that.

In the same way that forum.dlang.org can never have some of Discourse's features by its nature, Discourse can never have some of forum.dlang.org features. The Discourse's team's priorities are different (for example, they put much less emphasis on responsiveness, resource usage, interoperability, or multiple forms of presentation).

Perhaps you could list some particular features you're missing.

Bruno Medeiros <bruno.do.medeiros+dng@gmail.com> writes:

> Using old communication software like NNTP is one example of that. Compare with Rust's Discourse.

Having ability to use nntp reader (Gnus) which I use for all my mailing
lists (via Gmane) is big 'pro' to choose, among many other things, D
over Rust.

NNTP provides automatic archive, powerful search ability on disposal, no need to create sorting rules in order to keep my INBOX clean etc. No need to say, that it means that one can use one's preferred editor to compose *both* mail and news messages.

Moreover, when I had to use Discourse forum, I almost never used web UI, but email interface...

Similar to the, now old & aging, web forums, I simply do not get what is so great with things like Discourse forums in comparison with NNTP?

Similar wondering I have over popularity of Gitter/Slack over IRC...it looks as these days it's fashion that one has to use special app for each protocol used...


Sincerely,
Gour

-- 
One who restrains the senses of action but whose mind dwells on sense objects certainly deludes himself and is called a pretender.

On 03/24/2016 01:07 PM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
> On Thursday, 24 March 2016 at 16:46:53 UTC, Bruno Medeiros wrote:
>> It is, *however*, illustrative of a larger issue I have with the
>> mindset and attitude of the core D team: that there are several
>> aspects there that I consider antiquated, or narrow-minded. Please
>> don't take this as a personal offense Walter, it's not meant as such.
>> But:
>
> Sorry, but this is complete FUD.
>
>> Not understanding the importance of package managers is another (DUB
>> still not part of official distro?) Compare with Rust's Cargo.
>
> Dub is not part of the distro because the Dub maintainers don't consider
> it ready. Everyone wants it packaged. We are waiting for it to
> stabilize. If you want to help, start with
> https://github.com/D-Programming-Language/dub/issues.
>
>> Not understanding the importance of IDE tooling is another. Compare
>> with Rust planned support for IDE tooling from the Mozilla team
>> itself. (https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/blob/master/text/1317-ide.md)
>
> No, this is completely understood. We simply do not have the resources
> for that. I think we've done everything reasonable to promote Visual D,
> for example - it's linked from the website, it's in the GitHub
> organization, it's in the installer, what more do you want? Unlike
> Mozilla, we can't hire people to work on things full-time.
>
>> Even the fact that we are using custom web forum software (Vladimir's
>> forum) draws a strong parallel with the DigitalMars vs. LLVM backend
>> story.
>
> No.
>
>> I mean, Vladimir's forum is an impressive piece of work, and it's a
>> really good demo of D's capabilities. That said, it's the work of 1-2
>> people, it cannot stand against the capabilities and polish of
>> something like Discourse which is developed by a much bigger team, and
>> used by many different organizations.
>
> I take offense to that.
>
> In the same way that forum.dlang.org can never have some of Discourse's
> features by its nature, Discourse can never have some of forum.dlang.org
> features. The Discourse's team's priorities are different (for example,
> they put much less emphasis on responsiveness, resource usage,
> interoperability, or multiple forms of presentation).
>
> Perhaps you could list some particular features you're missing.

Many thanks Vladimir for a very good post. Last part made me smile because it reminded me of the many arguments constructed around "nobody can compete with IBM/Microsoft/ICEs/taxis/etc because they have market share/money/larger teams/lobbying power/etc" -- Andrei