On 23/03/2016 10:51, Bruno Medeiros wrote:
> OMG, this irrelevant, flamebait thread.
>
> One thing I like with Rust is that they have a modern forum software
> (discourse.org) for their community forums, in particular one that
> requires registration and an associated email (unlike newsgroups where
> anyone can post and emails can be spoofed easily). Even though this
> registration is easy, this seems to deter a lot of these random,
> anonymous, quasi-troll accounts with not much to say. (I'm not talking
> about karabuta specifically but other posters in general, in this thread
> and other threads)
>

Ugh, I'm getting quite used to being able to correct spelling errors in my posts too, and I can't do it with the newsgroups.

Newsgroups are like the C++ of forum technology...

-- 
Bruno Medeiros
https://twitter.com/brunodomedeiros

On Tuesday, 22 March 2016 at 20:43:07 UTC, Chris Wright wrote:
> Helping others to be polite is in fact progressive and enlightened. Your response is neither.

The problem with this idea is that you need an authority which decides what is the correct polite speech and what's not. There's no registry of universally polite speech. There can't be. I remind you - this post is made in a forum of a programming language over 10 years old and there're still major syntax change requests posted (DAE hove/hate semicolons?).

You can't please everyone. People have different ideas about what's offensive/progressive. As long as you're agreeing with the authority you're fine, the problem starts when you're not. You are going to get old and stop keeping up with the progressive idea of the day. Did you know that motherland is now a regressive word? Here's a VS addon to remind you of that:

https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=shinnn.alex

Why don't we look past the superficial stuff in the language and assume good intent? Do we really need to stand on moral high ground and look down on people less skilled in communicating politely? Is drama and infantilization of the community worth that feeling you get when 1-upping a regressive person? This time could be spent better by making awesome libraries for example. With that bluntly communicating person.

On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 at 10:25:46 UTC, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
> Also because the GP used the word "vitriol".

Yes, but Chris has already stated that he is a Social Justice Warrior, so he might object to things others don't :-).

On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 at 10:46:22 UTC, QAston wrote:
> [citations needed] for so much you post. You need to update your knowledge of evo-psych.

You should learn not to open a reply with going ad hominem. The fact that you don't, suggests to me that I've struck a nerve and that you basically don't have much to add to this debate...

I am also not basing my statements on pseudo-scientific evo-psych...


> I could tell you exact opposite:  men are the  more coopoerative sex.

I haven't said anything about one sex being more cooperative than the other.


> You know when males are competitive? When they compete for female attention.

Men position themselves also with other men they like, women are more likely to compete with people they don't like and more likely to downplay their own position with people they like to put themselves at the same level and create a connection. You very rarely see men claim that they are less capable in order to connect with people they like. The average woman communicate more at the personal level, are more likely to resolve issues they have, and are less likely to commit suicide as a result. Those are facts.

Statistical gender differences are real, measurable and observable to anyone willing to look at it. Does it apply at the individual level? No. There are greater differences between individuals than between genders.

However, an all-female community and an all-male community have typically different characteristics. Both online and offline.

> You know why programming attracts various social outcasts? Because we've always been welcoming. Don't fuck that up.

Actually, the D forums can be quite hostile at times, but it doesn't last for a very long.

I've actually spent years of my life studying social interaction on the internet and virtual worlds, academically. So you will most likely fail to engage me at a level where I can learn anything from your "citations".

What exactly are you trying to tell me? That programmers are somehow outcasts, by what definition? Even if it was true, then maybe it would be the other way around, given that system level programming is an extremely time consuming activity.

On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 at 12:04:19 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote:
> Actually, the D forums can be quite hostile at times, but it doesn't last for a very long.
>
> I've actually spent years of my life studying social interaction on the internet and virtual worlds, academically. So you will most likely fail to engage me at a level where I can learn anything from your "citations".
>
> What exactly are you trying to tell me? That programmers are somehow outcasts, by what definition? Even if it was true, then maybe it would be the other way around, given that system level programming is an extremely time consuming activity.

Oh, what I was posting weren't citations either obviously. That was the point: we could argue both ways. Either way - it don't matter.

And yes, I'm saying that the world of programming has a history of accepting "weird" people. That's partially because we have a clear measurment: either your stuff works or it doesn't. No need for identity wars. Computing was dominated by women after the ww2, it was shifted towards men later on. Maybe it will shift back. Who cares - we all have so much in common as programmers that it doesn't really matter which parts of your body hang down.

Am Wed, 23 Mar 2016 11:33:55 +0000
schrieb QAston <qaston@gmail.com>:

> https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=shinnn.alex

"The novelist from my motherland excites a lot of sci-fi addicts by his crazy storytelling."

… (from the screen-shot) turns into …

"The novelist from my native land excites a lot of sci-fi people with a drug addiction by their disgusting storytelling."

I feel safer now, having avoided these lingual traps.

-- 
Marco

On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 at 12:35:59 UTC, QAston wrote:
> And yes, I'm saying that the world of programming has a history of accepting "weird" people. That's partially because we have a clear measurment: either your stuff works or it doesn't. No need for identity wars. Computing was dominated by women after the ww2, it was shifted towards men later on. Maybe it will shift back. Who cares - we all have so much in common as programmers that it doesn't really matter which parts of your body hang down.

Fair enough, but here is some background worth mentioning.

In high school I went to a section that was geared towards computers and electronics. We started with 3 girls and lots of boys from all over the city. After a year we only had 1 girl left, and I don't recall any of the boys quitting. She was a cute, natural, bubbly girl, but in order to get an easier time she changed into a more silent/serious and mainstream girl which made her more accepted by the teenage boys. When we had classes with another class with more girls the boys dampened their comments... basically the presence of girls made them moderate themselves and act less obnoxious towards others (both boys and girls). Studies generally say that mixed groups do provide a more satisfactory environment. That'a probably true for online forums too.

In the army I had the same kind of experience. Male dominating and somewhat rough. The women that persists in such environments tend to take on less feminine manners too in order to gain respect. Although we also had a very feminine, extremely pretty, sergeant who did gain some respect, but her first inspection got very awkward, the men lost words, stuttered, giggled and generally had trouble keeping a straight face. She totally enjoyed it! So gender does create very real differences, sometimes suppressing (forcing women to become more like men), sometimes empowering.

In the academic sector the situation was better. Still male dominated, but more general awareness of gender issues. Still, as a teacher you can see that one strong female student in a male dominated group can do well and take the group leader position, but that more average students might benefit from having all-female groups.

I have absolutely no doubt that women are just a good programmers as men, but in my experience women in informatics tends to gravitate towards topics where they get to work with other people in addition to the technology. At one department meeting where we discussed how to attract more women to the Comp. Sci. department, one of the very bright professors said that she wasn't sure if we actually would do those women a favour since pure computer science is such a dull and meaningless topic... ;-) Of course, the gender percentage is not the real issue, the real issue is to make the study attainable and enjoyable for all. If only a small percentage of all women find it meaningful, then that is quite understandable and hardly a disaster, but if they don't even consider Compi. Sci. because it is male dominated then that is not good either.

Anyway, I think the mixed settings makes for better norm formation and interesting interaction, but we cannot declare that there should be more women interested in system level programming. In my experience that path starts in the early geeky teens by kids picking hardware to pieces... So we are basically stuck with the discourse of a male dominated community, which is not ideal, even for the male participants IMHO.

On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 at 11:33:55 UTC, QAston wrote:
> Why don't we look past the superficial stuff in the language and assume good intent?

Because some people have nothing of substance to contribute, but still want to feel superior.

On 03/23/2016 12:42 AM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
> On Tuesday, 22 March 2016 at 20:37:27 UTC, Chris Wright wrote:
>> On Tue, 22 Mar 2016 19:33:47 +0000, deadalnix wrote:
>>
>>> On Tuesday, 22 March 2016 at 18:19:16 UTC, Chris Wright wrote:
>>>> There was Janice Caron, who was helpful and eager and got a fair bit
>>>> of code into phobos. From what I recall, she was not well treated by
>>>> the community.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> [citation needed]
>>
>> It was on IRC in a private channel. I don't keep IRC logs for more
>> than five years.
>
> Janice Caron's last post was in 2008. I've been on #d since 2006, and
> the first time I've seen Andrei on IRC was in 2010.
>
> Additionally, I've met Andrei in person on multiple occasions.
>
> I find this extremely hard to believe.

I'm not sure what was being implied, but just to clarify a few simple facts: Janice and I never interacted on IRC. She and I had a meaningful private correspondence for a good while, during which she also revealed her identity. I do remember a flamewar in this forum that she found harassing, which I did not take part to and which is not easy to find and follow because some posts have been removed at the posters' request. We'd do good to generally avoid colportage of rumor. And of course, making this forum friendlier and more welcoming is something we always should aspire to. Thanks! -- Andrei

On Wed, 23 Mar 2016 14:40:07 -0400, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
> I'm not sure what was being implied, but just to clarify a few simple facts: Janice and I never interacted on IRC.

I was comparing reactions to you with reactions to Janice. I did not intend to imply that you harassed anyone. The portions of your conduct that I have seen have been professional.