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Civility
5 days ago
Don Allen
5 days ago
mw
5 days ago
Abdulhaq
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bauss
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bauss
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forkit
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IGotD-
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forkit
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forkit
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claptrap
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Walter Bright
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Max Samukha
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Walter Bright
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forkit
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Walter Bright
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Walter Bright
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H. S. Teoh
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forkit
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Mike Parker
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forkit
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forkit
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5 days ago

I've been bothered by the tone of some of the messages in this forum recently, particularly in the "Why isn't D more popular?" threads.

Certainly D, like every other language, isn't perfect. I think it is fine to make suggestions about how it could be improved. I've done it myself recently. But given the extraordinary amount of hard work and skill that has gone into producing the software as it is today, combined with the fact that D is given to us without cost, reinforces our obligation to conduct these discussions in a civil manner.

I readily concede that I am a newcomer to the D community and I sense that there may be some scar tissue from a past with which I am not familiar. But what I see is a language and supporting documentation, tools and libraries that, however imperfect (join the crowd!), are awfully good in my estimation. I recently finished porting about 10,000 lines of C to D that, despite my best efforts and long experience had become impossibly ugly and hard to maintain. As someone recently observed in this forum, the D code is far more readable and concise and the performance and reliability (so far) are excellent. And the port was easy, mostly taking the existing C and simplifying it, by taking advantage of D's greater power.

So while I encourage all of you to submit your best ideas for D improvement to this forum, I also suggest that you avoid getting nasty or personal.

I'd also like to take a moment to address the "why isn't D more popular" question. Popularity is not necessarily an indication of merit. Windows still occupies something like 90% of the desktops/laptops and while it has improved since Ballmer's exit, I think it is a distant last among the operating systems available for desktop computers and laptops. A lot of factors contribute to popularity and I don't think they add up to a meritocracy. As a lifelong amateur classical musician, this reminds me of the music business, where extraordinary musicians too frequently get overlooked by an unknowing public that is easily seduced by extra-musical factors.

5 days ago

On Thursday, 23 June 2022 at 18:02:13 UTC, Don Allen wrote:

>

... reinforces our obligation to conduct these discussions in a civil manner.

So while I encourage all of you to submit your best ideas for D improvement to this forum, I also suggest that you avoid getting nasty or personal.

indeed! +1.

5 days ago

On Thursday, 23 June 2022 at 18:02:13 UTC, Don Allen wrote:

>

I've been bothered by the tone of some of the messages in this forum recently, particularly in the "Why isn't D more popular?" threads.

>

I'd also like to take a moment to address the "why isn't D more popular" question. Popularity is not necessarily an indication of merit. Windows still occupies something like 90% of the desktops/laptops and while it has improved since Ballmer's exit, I think it is a distant last among the operating systems available for desktop computers and laptops. A lot of factors contribute to popularity and I don't think they add up to a meritocracy. As a lifelong amateur classical musician, this reminds me of the music business, where extraordinary musicians too frequently get overlooked by an unknowing public that is easily seduced by extra-musical factors.

You really had me there Don until you snuck in the 'why D is unpopular' at the end LOL. This thread should be renamed 'Why D Is Unpopular (Thread #4) (Polite Version). We were all waiting for Bauss but you snuck in there.

5 days ago
On Thursday, 23 June 2022 at 18:02:13 UTC, Don Allen wrote:
>

I can assure you, that 'robust' discussions have always been, and will always be, a part of human interaction.

There is nothing unique about the D forums, in this respect.

If somone ever genuiely crosses the line of 'civiilty', they are called out.

I've never seen a situation where they haven't been.

But shutting down robust discussions, is not my thing, and I'd encourage you, to not make it your thing.

btw. You mentioned the 'most controversial' threads, but there are other threads, discussions, besides the one you mention ;-)

5 days ago

On Thursday, 23 June 2022 at 18:02:13 UTC, Don Allen wrote:

>

So while I encourage all of you to submit your best ideas for D improvement to this forum, I also suggest that you avoid getting nasty or personal.

The thread "Why isn't D more popular?" was mostly objective and I hardly noticed any personal attacks but maybe I skimmed through it fast. The leadership/management of the D project remains a controversial topic and people have their right to express their thoughts about it. Some people might be dejected because how the project is managed and might be expressed in a negative way. That is mostly because people care about the project and want it to improve, otherwise they wouldn't write a word about it.

If I'm going to criticize how things are discussed in the forum is that often that threads are derailed off topic. One thread, one topic should be the rule.

5 days ago
On Thursday, 23 June 2022 at 22:18:14 UTC, IGotD- wrote:
>
> ..
> If I'm going to criticize how things are discussed in the forum is that often that threads are derailed off topic. One thread, one topic should be the rule.


That's to be expected, particuarly in threads that spark an 'emotional' connection to the topic being discussed.

When dealing with humans, you need to allow some leniency here... otherwise.. bad things sometimes happen when people cannot express their emotional state...

Again, lets keep this in context.

Most threads in the D forums, do not evolve into 'robust' discussion, and 'most' threads remain, for the most part, on topic.

Unfortunately, as humans, our attention is always directed immediately to the most emotionally salient content.

But the vast majority of threads in the D forum do not have emotionally salient content ;-)
5 days ago
On Thursday, 23 June 2022 at 18:02:13 UTC, Don Allen wrote:
>

Also, if you are new to the D forums, you will often find this verb below, as the last part of an opening thread:

Destroy!

If I'm correct, we can thank (I mean genuiely thank) Andrei Alexandrescu for this!

While it's certainly not permission to go be uncivil to each other, it is a clear indication that 'group think', thankfully, is not actively encouraged in the D forums.

You need to get comfortable with this ;-)

5 days ago

On Thursday, 23 June 2022 at 18:02:13 UTC, Don Allen wrote:

>

I've been bothered by the tone of some of the messages in this forum recently, particularly in the "Why isn't D more popular?" threads.

I think the D forums need a crèche.

5 days ago
Thanks for your kind words, Don! And thanks for recounting your success story with converting C to D.

Frankly, it has a lot to do with marketing. We're all engineers here, not marketers, and it shows.

Since you brought up the music business, it's the same thing. It's only partially a meritocracy. The rest is skill at marketing, packaging, and promotion. Even The Beatles languished in obscurity until they met Epstein.

My own C compiler did poorly until I partnered with John Haggins, a born marketer. Wow, what a difference he made!

I've known many engineers over the years who created very nice products. They'd come and complain to me that there was no uptake, what should they do? I replied that they needed marketing and promotion, and I'd outline things they needed to do (like write articles, give presentations at conferences, etc.).

None of them would do this. Several had the attitude that it was unethical to do any marketing and promotion. The rest just didn't want to make the effort. All wound up very discouraged and bitter.

Remember that movie "Field of Dreams"? To have a successful baseball field, "build it and they'll come". That's a pernicious lie. Things don't happen that way. Do you think Hollywood did no marketing and promotion for "FoD"? Of course they did! Lots of it.

Yes, we in the D community do do marketing and promotion. It's just that we're up against other communities that are very good at it.

P.S. Yes, I know there are products that took off with zero marketing and promotion. They are very, very rare.
5 days ago
On Friday, 24 June 2022 at 02:48:32 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
>
>
> Remember that movie "Field of Dreams"? To have a successful baseball field, "build it and they'll come". That's a pernicious lie.

Another lie is "There's no such thing as bad publicity”. Bad press is bad. Threads like "Why D is unpopular?" shouldn't reach 1000 posts.
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