On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 at 00:11:17 UTC, tsbockman wrote:
> On Tuesday, 22 March 2016 at 18:06:28 UTC, Chris Wright wrote:
>> https://peerj.com/preprints/1733/
>>

This whole discussion made me wanna watch this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlR6CdJtRWM

On Tuesday, 22 March 2016 at 20:52:03 UTC, deadalnix wrote:
> I mean from the Gnome outreach program, that ended up bankrupting the Gnome fundation, non peer reviewed research and invisible vitriol, you have presented no case that is worth debunking so far.

https://www.gnome.org/press/2016/02/gnome-foundation-was-never-bankrupt/

On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 at 03:18:53 UTC, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:
> On Tuesday, 22 March 2016 at 20:52:03 UTC, deadalnix wrote:
>> I mean from the Gnome outreach program, that ended up bankrupting the Gnome fundation, non peer reviewed research and invisible vitriol, you have presented no case that is worth debunking so far.
>
> https://www.gnome.org/press/2016/02/gnome-foundation-was-never-bankrupt/

Ok there was a "temporary cash flow issue", and "GNOME Foundation’s board temporarily froze expenditures while it collected the funds and revamped its financial procedures to adjust for the additional cash flow going forward".

That really doesn't change anything to the point I'm making.

On Tuesday, 22 March 2016 at 20:37:27 UTC, Chris Wright wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Mar 2016 19:33:47 +0000, deadalnix wrote:
>
>> On Tuesday, 22 March 2016 at 18:19:16 UTC, Chris Wright wrote:
>>> There was Janice Caron, who was helpful and eager and got a fair bit of code into phobos. From what I recall, she was not well treated by the community.
>>>
>>>
>> [citation needed]
>
> It was on IRC in a private channel. I don't keep IRC logs for more than five years.

Janice Caron's last post was in 2008. I've been on #d since 2006, and the first time I've seen Andrei on IRC was in 2010.

Additionally, I've met Andrei in person on multiple occasions.

I find this extremely hard to believe.

On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 at 04:42:24 UTC, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
> Additionally, I've met Andrei in person on multiple occasions.
>
> I find this extremely hard to believe.

Not that this is a terribly important issue, but both Andrei, Deadalnix, Dicebot and many others have in the past expressed themselves using harsh wordings in these forums, so not quite sure why you would find it extremely hard to believe that someone has objected to something Andrei has said or the way he said it? I object to lots of things he has said and the ways he has said it!

To the people who don't think there are gender differences: take a look at all-female groups and compare them to all-male groups. The dynamics are different. Men are in general competitive. Women are just as competitive as men, but not with people the consider to be in their in-group/peers. In such settings the average woman is more likely to play down her own abilities "Oh, no, I am no better than you, I also have trouble with X,Y,Z" to find balance and common ground. So claiming that having a male dominated group doesn't affect social dynamics is not-very-scientific. Gender differences in social settings are real.

Are people treated differently based on their presentation and identity? Yes. Are people more likely to complain about quality when they look at something with greater scrutiny? Yes, because if they invest time into evaluating then finding a flaw is considered being productive (spending time on something and not finding flaws makes the effort wasted). Will people look at code with more scrutiny if the submitter stands out in some way, most likely. Do some men have trouble with having a young woman as their boss, initially, yes. Is that related to men having dominance related issues versus women, most likely. Is there a biological foundation for this? Most likely.

Can you treat a woman exactly the same way you treat a man without being perceived as sexist? Probably not. If the average woman expects and wants to find common ground, but many men are inclined to assert their dominance (towards both men and women), then you have a fundamental clash of expectations.

Is this all culture? Obviously not, the root for dominance/emotions are very biological in their foundation. Can we do something about it? Only by paying attention to our own flaws.

Is it reasonable to expect a male dominated culture to switch into an interaction mode that the average woman would prefer? Probably not. And vice versa.

Does the dynamics of male dominated groups change when you increase the number of women in the group? Yes.

The only way a person can be non-discriminating is by realizing that we in our nature are stereotyping and discriminating. It is integral to human nature og social dynamics.

I never trust people who claim that they never discriminate, because I have yet to meet a person that doesn't.

So the OP was basically right, and you are all wrong and in denial!!! ;-)

On 3/23/2016 1:27 AM, Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote:
> I never trust people who claim that they never discriminate, because I have yet
> to meet a person that doesn't.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Internet,_nobody_knows_you%27re_a_dog

On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 at 08:37:01 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
> On 3/23/2016 1:27 AM, Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote:
>> I never trust people who claim that they never discriminate, because I have yet
>> to meet a person that doesn't.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Internet,_nobody_knows_you%27re_a_dog

If you hide your gender you can, but I vastly prefer people who present their real name. I rate people more favourably if they go by their real handle, even if I strongly disagree with them, honesty is a very important quality. So I don't think discrimination can be avoided (in the broad sense), without going into hardcore deception (and that can be damaging). There is this famous essay of a MUD community that mourned over the death of a core community member, but it turned out the person just committed virtual suicide, not a physical death...

I've been playing several personas that were female presenting in settings where it was socially acceptable, but male acting, before this became a topic (mid 90s) and there certainly was bias in the interaction that ensued from time to time. It is also very educational to put yourself emotionally into identity and cultural expectations related to the opposite gender.

Anyway, there are positive qualities to both the more cooperative female side (information sharing) and the more competitive male side (debating) of interaction within a group. We all have both aspects, of course, and for progress we need a mix.

But gender affects how some people learn too. Male students may not want to admit to others that they don't know the topic and study the manuals instead of asking questions. Female students appears to have less resistance to asking questions. This is good if you want to be productive, but by studying the manuals you also learn a lot of stuff that you don't need at the time, but might need later. Some women also do this, of course, but I think there might be many very real gendered reasons for why more men are technical geeks than women.

Generally, it seems like it is more common for female engineers seems to be motivated by solving real problems rather than having the technology being the goal. I think male geeks often are the ones that picked their toys into pieces to figure out how they worked. Some girls do that too, just not as common.

On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 at 08:27:59 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote:
> On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 at 04:42:24 UTC, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
>> Additionally, I've met Andrei in person on multiple occasions.
>>
>> I find this extremely hard to believe.
>
> Not that this is a terribly important issue, but both Andrei, Deadalnix, Dicebot and many others have in the past expressed themselves using harsh wordings in these forums, so not quite sure why you would find it extremely hard to believe that someone has objected to something Andrei has said or the way he said it? I object to lots of things he has said and the ways he has said it!

Mainly because of the other part you didn't quote.

Also because the GP used the word "vitriol".

> [snip]

I'm guessing the rest isn't really a reply to my post.

On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 at 10:12:34 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote:
> On Wednesday, 23 March 2016 at 08:37:01 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
>
> If you hide your gender you can, but I vastly prefer people who present their real name. I rate people more favourably if they go by their real handle, even if I strongly disagree with them, honesty is a very important quality. So I don't think discrimination can be avoided (in the broad sense), without going into hardcore deception (and that can be damaging). There is this famous essay of a MUD community that mourned over the death of a core community member, but it turned out the person just committed virtual suicide, not a physical death...
>
> I've been playing several personas that were female presenting in settings where it was socially acceptable, but male acting, before this became a topic (mid 90s) and there certainly was bias in the interaction that ensued from time to time. It is also very educational to put yourself emotionally into identity and cultural expectations related to the opposite gender.
>
> Anyway, there are positive qualities to both the more cooperative female side (information sharing) and the more competitive male side (debating) of interaction within a group. We all have both aspects, of course, and for progress we need a mix.
>
> But gender affects how some people learn too. Male students may not want to admit to others that they don't know the topic and study the manuals instead of asking questions. Female students appears to have less resistance to asking questions. This is good if you want to be productive, but by studying the manuals you also learn a lot of stuff that you don't need at the time, but might need later. Some women also do this, of course, but I think there might be many very real gendered reasons for why more men are technical geeks than women.
>
> Generally, it seems like it is more common for female engineers seems to be motivated by solving real problems rather than having the technology being the goal. I think male geeks often are the ones that picked their toys into pieces to figure out how they worked. Some girls do that too, just not as common.

[citations needed] for so much you post. You need to update your knowledge of evo-psych. I could tell you exact opposite: men are the  more coopoerative sex. Show me examples of great all female cooperation please. I could point to the building you're sitting in. Most likely made almost exclusively by males. You know when males are competitive? When they compete for female attention. For example by starting a thread like this. Perfect example of virtue signaling. Your real first name doesn't tell me anything - in my language it's female, I don't even know what the language you're using. I don't give a damn.

All of the above doesn't matter. Stop making up gender issues when there're none. Stop dividing the community into classes. We don't need identity politics. Artists with patronage and programmers are among most welcoming groups out there. You know why programming attracts various social outcasts? Because we've always been welcoming. Don't fuck that up.

On 17/03/2016 16:17, Karabuta wrote:
> Are there any female programmers using D? :)
> Moreover, the socia Media representation of D sucks. I think we need a
> female, at least someone soft and mortal who actually understand how to
> communicate and build a community. Coders suck at these things and its
> not helping. This is not about gender balance crap, it about building a
> community.
>
> Forgive me for my brutal opinion.
>
> Destroy :)

OMG, this irrelevant, flamebait thread.

One thing I like with Rust is that they have a modern forum software (discourse.org) for their community forums, in particular one that requires registration and an associated email (unlike newsgroups where anyone can post and emails can be spoofed easily). Even though this registration is easy, this seems to deter a lot of these random, anonymous, quasi-troll accounts with not much to say. (I'm not talking about karabuta specifically but other posters in general, in this thread and other threads)

-- 
Bruno Medeiros
https://twitter.com/brunodomedeiros